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Urdu - lack of progress | ||
Tags: Urdu | Loss of confidence | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Boomerang3378 Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4700 days ago 34 posts - 72 votes  Speaks: English*, Urdu Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 9 of 52 02 October 2012 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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Okay lets take the first sentence. The one you posted has some mistakes. Here's a correct way of writing it.
"Woh eik lakarhara tha. Saari umar Jangaloan mein ja kar lakrian kaat kar inhein bheja karta tha aur apni is mahnat ki waja say, jangal mein, kuch arsay tak, eik chota sa makan bunwaya tha. Jis mein woh, apni beewi aur jawan beta rahtay thay." In your sentence you used "is nay" after "umar". This is not used. "Is nay" cannot be used in this sentence and in this context. I'll give you a few examples of when you can use it. "Is nay lakri kaata" (He cut the wood) (past tense) "Yay lakri kaat raha hai" (He is cutting the wood) (present cont.) "Us nay lakri kaata" (He cut the wood)... Us= "he" as in the guy who's standing over there. "Is" as in the guy whos near to you. "Woh lakri kaat raha hai" (He is cutting the wood)...Woh= "he" (the guy over there) Now remember that whenever you use a preceding scenario and say that someone is going into someplace to do something... in Urdu... you will not use "Is nay"... "Preceding scenario" is explained below. "Woh ghar k andar ja kar kaam karnay laga" (He went into the house and started working) "Apni poori zindagi ghar k andar ja kar kaam karta tha" (His whole life he went inside the house and worked)... Notice that in the second sentence you dont have to specify "woh" or "is nay" because the verb at the end "karta tha" signifies that we are talking about a male whereas in the sentence above this one we use "woh" because there was no preceding senario. By preceding senario I mean when you are giving somebody an idea about whats happening as you start the sentence. In the second sentence the preceding senario is "Apni poori zindagi" which means "His/her whole life".... whenever you use a preceding scenario, you cannot use "is nay" or "us nay" or "woh". Lets take a look at some examples. Saari umar isskool ja kar Spanish seektah tha. (His whole life, he went to school and learnt Spanish) Saari umar jangaloan mein ja kar darkt charta tha. (His whole life he went into Jungles and climbed trees) Saari umar Budapest ja kar Hungarian seekta tha. (His whole life he went to Budapest and learned Hungarian) Saari umar Tokoyo ja kar Japanese larkian say chaantay khaata thaa. (His whole life he went to Tokoyo and got slapped by Japanese girls) Saari umar Siberia ja kar Snowman banata tha. (His whole life he went to Siberia and made Snowmen) Saari umar Santa kay workshop mein ja kar khiloanay banata tha. (His whole life he went into Santa's workshop and made toys) Saari umar jangaloan mein ja kar lakrian kaaatta tha. (His whole life he went into Jungles and cut trees) So you see. The preceding scenario is "Saari Umar" and "Apni poori Zindagi"... When these are used at the start of a sentence you cannot use "is nay" and "us nay" but sometimes and only sometimes you can use "woh". Now lets use some of the above sentences without the preceding scenario and see what we get. "Woh iskool ja kar Spanish seektah tha" "Woh jangaloan mein ja kar darkt charta tha" "Woh Budapest ja kar Hungarian seekta tha" "Woh Tokoyo ja kar Japanese larkian say chaantay khaata thaa" "Woh Siberia ja kar Snowman banata tha" "Woh jangaloan mein ja kar lakrian kaaatta tha" "Woh Santa kay workshop mein ja kar khiloanay banata tha" All translations are the same. The preceding scenario has been removed and "woh" has been included. Woh=he, because of the "tha" ending in all the sentences. Lets take one example from the above sentences in which "woh" corresponds to "she" (signifying that a girl is being spoken about) "Woh Budapest ja kar Hungarian seekti thi" And adding the preceding scenario... "Apni poori zindagi Budapest ja kar Hungarian seekti thi" Okay so all this was to explain why "is nay" cannot be used after "umar" in your original sentence due to the presence of the preceding scenario "Saari Ummar" Now I will work on explaining about my inclusion of "bheja karta tha", "Mahnat ki waja say" , "Jungle mein" , "kuch arsay tak" and "rahtay thay". I'll cover all these in more detail later on. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| freakyaye Senior Member Australia Joined 4837 days ago 107 posts - 152 votes | Message 10 of 52 02 October 2012 at 6:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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Holy crikey Moses I now know what "saari umar" means!
#HTALgold :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Boomerang3378 Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4700 days ago 34 posts - 72 votes Speaks: English*, Urdu Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 11 of 52 02 October 2012 at 9:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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Okay, first of all "lagna" is not a verb in Urdu. It represents a particular concept which is used in a variety of situations with different conjugations. The verb is "lagana". And in that sentence... "batanay laga" .... "laga" here has no relation with the verb "lagana". "Batanay laga" means "He began to tell". You see the "laga" after "batanay" means "started to"... "laga" is used for the male and "lagi" for females. So "Batanay Lagi" would mean "She started to tell". Also another translation of "started to tell" is "Batana shuru kia" which means "He started to tell" and "Batana shuru ki" ..."She started to tell". So, "batanay laga" could also be said as "batana shuru kia".
Now lets take a look at the example you presented, "Batanay laga"... I'll try to explain the use of "laga" in these circumstances in detail. Lets take a look at the sentence you posted. "Us nay kulhara uthha kar sarfu kay kandhay par rakh dia aur usay batanay laga k achay paer kahan kahan hein." This sentence is correct. And it can also be written as ... "Us nay kulhara utha kar sarfu kay kandhay par rakh dia aur usay batana shuru kia k achay paer kahan kahan hein." So you see both terms can be used. What you have to understand here is that the verb is not "laga" but "batana" which means "to tell"... Giving you an explanation of the verb "lagana" right now will be of no use since "lagana" has no relevance whatsoever with the "laga" being used in this sentence although it has a relation with the concept "lagna" and with "laga" in other contexts. We'll see all those later. Now to answer your question of why "laga" is being used in this sentence after "batanay"... It's because of what one wants to say and about how one wants to express one thing over the other. You see in the place of "batanay laga" you could have said "batana shuru kia" , "bataya" , "batana shuru kia tha" and "bataya tha" Batanay laga = Started to tell Batana shuru kia = Started to tell Bataya = Told Batana shuru kia tha = Had started to tell Bataya tha = Had told. Batanay lag gaya tha = Had started to tell So depending on what you want to say, you pick the appropriate ending. All you need to know is that the verb here is "batana" and not "laga". And ofcourse you use the past tense and past perfect tense of the verbs if you wanted to say the sentence in the past tense. For example... Past: "Us nay kulhara utahaya tha aur Sarfu kay kandhay par rakh dia tha aur phir usay bataya tha/batana shuru kia tha/batanay lag gaya tha kay achay paer kahan kahan hein." Lets take it into the future and see what we get. Future: "Woh kulhara uthayegah aur Sarfu kay kandhoan par rakhay gah aur usay bataegah kay achay paer kahan kahan hein." In the future, in the above example, there is no use of "lag" or any of its conjugations. But it is simply "Bataega" which means "will tell"... "uthaega" means "will pick up/carry"... "rakhay gah"="will keep/will place". Also the word "Kandhay" changes to "kandhoan". These are one of the many words which will change its form in the future tense. The word "Kandha" (Shoulder) has three forms. Kandha (sing.), kandhay (plu.) and kandhoan (which is basically an inflection). Also the word taang (leg) has three forms. Taang (sing.), Taangein (plu.) and Taangoan (inflection). Similarly... Aankh (eye)...Aankhein (eyes) and Aankhoan (inflec). Now the word baal (hair) has two forms only... baal (which is sometimes singular and plural) and baaloan (which is a plural and an inflection)... Let me explain with a few examples... "Mere baal gir rahay hein" (My hair is falling) - Here "baal" is used as plural. "Mera baal tuut gaya" (One strand of my hair fell/My hair strand broke[literal trans]) - Here "baal is used as singular. "Baaloan mein teil lagao" (Oil your hair/Put oil in your hair[lit]) - Here the inflection is used. "Meri taang buhat lambi hai" (My leg is very long) - "Meri" does not denote that a girl is speaking but denotes that taang is feminine. Whether a man or a woman says this they will say "Meri taang buhat lambi hai" "Meri tangein buhat lambi hein" (My legs are very long) - taangein = plural... hein = plural ending corresponding to taangein. "Ball toh is kay taangoan k beech mein say guzar kar nikal gayi" (The ball passed through his legs) - Here the inflection "taangoan" is used. Also ball is feminine, hence the "nikal gayi" ending. Now "laga (with an intonation)" in another context also means "Did you get hurt" or "Did it hurt you?" A few examples... Suppose somebody hits you by mistake.... They'll often say sorry followed by "Laga toh nahn?" "Laga toh nahn" is a way of saying "I hope you didnt get hurt"... Now depending on what object hit you... you will use an ending corresponding to the gender of the object which hit you as either "laga" or "lagi". Lets take a look at some examples. If someone hits you with his hand... since hand (haath) is a masculine... they'll ask "Laga toh nahn?" If someone hits you on the back of your head with an Assimil book.... since book (kitab) is feminine... they'll ask "Lagi toh nahn?" If Bruce Lee gave you a kick...since leg (taang) is feminine... He would ask "Lagi toh nahn?" If someone dropped hot water on your hand... since water (paani) is masculine... they'll ask "Laga toh nahn?" Lets take a look at some other concepts so that you're more familiar with it's use. The word for bruise/hurt/cut in Urdu is called "choat". It is feminine. So it will use all female endings in Urdu along with the word "lagi". For example... "Muje choat lagi" (I got hurt) "Bhagtay bhagtay mein zameen pay gir para aur muje choat lagi" (Running, I fell on the ground and got hurt) "Bruce Lee nay muje eik karate chop mara. Us karate chop say muje choat lagi." (Bruce gave me a karate chop. I got hurt from that.) Now "choat lagi" will be used irrespective of whether a male or a female is saying the sentence. It will NEVER be "choat laga".. It will always be "choat lagi" as "choat" itself is feminine as mentioned above. Also note that "Choat Lagi" is a set expression of saying that you got hurt. This is ofcourse physical pain/hurt. For emotional pain you can't say "Muje choat lagi"... If for instance there is a break-up between two people... And one wants to express his/her pain... They will say "Us nay mere dil ko buhat takleef phaunchaya" .... Note that there is no use of "laga" over here even though its concept is prevalent here as "emotional pain"... Edited by Boomerang3378 on 02 October 2012 at 10:01pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| whitelily Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5632 days ago 42 posts - 47 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Arabic (classical), Urdu | Message 12 of 52 02 October 2012 at 10:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thank you again for your quick reply Boomerang, and for your thorough explanation. Much appreciated, and I
really like that you exemplify everything you explain. It makes it easier to understand. I will have to read your posts several times to try to remember the various distinctions you have pointed out. Your explanation of the reason behind "batanay laga", as well as the situations when one can omit the personal pronoun was very beneficial. I´ve been wondering about that. The sentences I showed you are directly copied from a children's´ book in Urdu. Are these mistakes in this book so "bad" that you advice that I find another book to read? Maybe you are getting to it, but could you explain the usage of "ja kar" (gramatically speaking). You also used this in several sentences, e.g. "Apni poori zindagi ghar k andar ja kar kaam karta tha". Should "ja kar kaam" be seen as a set expression that would be equally right if the sentence was written about a woman (using karti thi at the end of your sentence, in stead of karta tha)? The reason I´m confused about the way "ja kar" is used, is that it seems that the verbs are not conjugated, and only the stem of the verb is used. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Boomerang3378 Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4700 days ago 34 posts - 72 votes Speaks: English*, Urdu Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 13 of 52 02 October 2012 at 10:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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"jaa kar lakRiyaaN kaaT kar". Is it just like a "set" expression "to go wood-cutting"?
No. This is not a set expression at all. This is an incomplete sentence. The verb "to go wood-cutting" is "lakrian katnay jana." The verb "to go" as I explained in a previous post is "jana". The verb "to cut" is "kaatna". The verb "to go cutting" is "Kaatnay jaana". The reason it is incomplete is because of the ending "kar" being used after "jaa" and after "kaat." When an Urdu sentence is written in this way it allows for continuing sentences or ideas to latch onto the "kar"... "Kar" in Urdu means "do" and "karna" is the verb "to do" but in this sentence it acts like an English comma (,)... Let me elaborate... Woh Kulhara tha = He was a wood-cutter. Saari ummar jangaloan mein ja kar = His whole life he went into jungles, Lakrian kaat kar = cut wood, Inhein bheja karta tha = and used to sell it. Apni is mahnat ki waja say = Because of this effort of his Jungle mein kuch arsay tak = In the jungle for some time Eik chota sa makan banwaya tha = He constructed a small wooden hut/house. Jis mein woh,apni beewi aur jawan beta = In which he, his wife and young son rahtay thay = used to live. If you didn't understand anything from above please feel free to ask. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| whitelily Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5632 days ago 42 posts - 47 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Arabic (classical), Urdu | Message 14 of 52 02 October 2012 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | ||
Ah, great! That makes sense. Thank you! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Boomerang3378 Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4700 days ago 34 posts - 72 votes Speaks: English*, Urdu Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 15 of 52 03 October 2012 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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Maybe you are getting to it, but could you explain the usage of "ja kar" (gramatically speaking). You also used this in several sentences, e.g. "Apni poori zindagi ghar k andar ja kar kaam karta tha". Should "ja kar kaam" be seen as a set expression that would be equally right if the sentence was written about a woman (using karti thi at the end of your sentence,in stead of karta tha)? The reason I´m confused about the way "ja kar" is used, is that it seems that the verbs are not conjugated, and only the stem of the verb is used.
"Ja kar" standing on its own means "to go and". In the sentence "Apni poori zindagi ghar k andar ja kar kaam karta tha", "ja kar" over here means "went and" ... ghar = house, andar = inside, k = of ... "ghar k andar" = inside of the house ... "ja kar" = "went and"..."ghar k andar ja kar" = "went inside of the house and". Notice that even over here the "kar" is used in such a way that you can latch on ideas to complete the sentence. Urdu sentences written in this way (ending with "kar") are always incomplete and the "kar" ending acts either like an "and" or like an English comma (,). Lets see a few examples. "Mein jata hun" = "I go" "Mein ja raha hun" = "I am going" "Mein ja kar kaam karta hun" = "I go 'and' do work." (Mein=I, Ja=go, Kar=and, karta=do, hun=singular first person ending) Now lets take another example of "I go and do work". You know that "and" in Urdu is "aur". So you must be wondering why "kar" (which actually means "do") is being used as "and". Let me explain. "Mein jata hun aur kaam karta hun" = "I go and do work" - Over here 'aur' is being used as its original meaning as "and". Lets look at another... "Bandar darkt pay charta hai 'aur' kaylaa khata hai" = " The monkey climbs the tree 'and' eats the banana" Even here "aur" is using its original meaning (and). But we could also say... "Bandar darkt pay char kar kayla khata hai" = "The monkey climbs the tree and eats the banana" Bandar=monkey, pay=on, char=climb, kar=and, kayla=banana, hai= verb ending of "to do". The verb "to climb" is "charna" ... and you can guess what "char kar" means... it means "climbs and" just how "ja kar" in the previous examples meant "went and" and "to go and" depending on the tense of the sentence. Lets change the sentence a little bit. "Bandar darkt pay char kar hansnay laga"... The reason I chose to write this sentence is because it has "hansnay laga" in it. And just how "batanay laga" was used in that wood-cutter sentence, "hansnay laga" is used in that very same way. The above sentence is translated as "The monkey climbed the tree and started to laugh" ... And here "laga" means "started to" just how that "laga"(after batanay) meant "started to" in the wood-cutter sentence. The verb "to laugh" is "hansna"... "Mein hansta hun" = "I laugh" "Mein hansnay laga" = "I started to laugh" "Mein hansta tha" = "I used to laugh" "Mein hansnay laga tha" = "I started to laugh"(past) or "I began to laugh" "Bandar hansnay laga" = "The monkey started laughing" "Bandar batanay laga" = "The monkey started to tell" In all of the above sentences where "laga" is used, its meaning translates as "started to". And like I explained before, you can also use the original word for "start" which is "shuru" in Urdu. So, "Mein hansnay laga" can also be written as "Meri hansi shuru hui" which means "I started to laugh/My laughter started[literal trans.]) ... Hansi(laughter) is feminine ... So one would say "Meri hansi" and end the sentence with "hui" irrespective of whether it's a male or a female talking. So what we have learnt from the above is that in a "verb + laga" scenario, the "laga" will mean "started to" and in a "verb + kar" situation, the "kar" will be used as either an English comma (,) or an English "and". Additionally, the reason the verb doesn't conjugate in the "verb + kar" situation is because of the "kar". When the "kar" means "and/comma" in a sentence then the stem of the verb is used only (you are correct). In order for the full verb to conjugate we have to use the original word which means "and"..."aur" For example... "Mein hans kar Mr. Bean dekhta hun" = "I laugh and watch Mr Bean". Notice the stem "hans" being used due to the presence of "kar". "Mein hansta hun aur Mr. Bean dekhta hun" = "I laugh and watch Mr. Bean". Notice that due to the presence of "aur" being used in place of "kar" we have the first person conjugation (Mein hansta hun)[I laugh] of the verb "hansna" (to laugh)... Lets see some more examples... "Mein khat likh kar khana khata hun" = "I write the letter and eat dinner/lunch" "Mein khat likhta hun aur khana khata hun" = "I write the letter and eat lunch/dinner" The verb "to write" is "likhna"... "likh kar" means "write and"... "likh" is the stem being used of the verb "likhna" (to write) because of the presence of "kar" which means "and" in this sentence. In the second sentence we have the first person conjugation (Mein likhta hun)[I write] of the verb "likhna" because of "aur" which is the original word for "and"... To clear up any confusion... "Mein likhta hun" (I write)... "Mein khat likhta hun" (I write a letter). 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Boomerang3378 Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4700 days ago 34 posts - 72 votes Speaks: English*, Urdu Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 16 of 52 03 October 2012 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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The sentences I showed you are directly copied from a children's´ book in Urdu. Are these mistakes in this book so "bad" that you advice that I find another book to read?
Those mistakes are either typos or are caused by native speakers who have left Pakistan and have stayed in some other country for a very long time causing their native proficiency in Urdu to deteriorate significantly as no native would make those mistakes. If the book is written by a native speaker... then the mistakes could be typos, misprints or the book may have just been rushed and not corrected. If it is not written by a native speaker then you should not be consulting it. Unfortunately, all the Urdu books I could recommend for you would be the ones written in Urdu as I myself learnt Urdu through Urdu and not English. Urdu native speakers are called "Mahajirs." Only these people can really teach you correct Urdu. All the others speak Urdu with some accent or the other, make grammatical mistakes, and don't use the appropriate genders of objects in their sentences. Mahajirs, on the other hand, have an authentic Urdu accent, make no grammatical mistakes and always use the correct gender. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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