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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4667 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes  Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 9 of 17 09 February 2013 at 2:20am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes and no. Yes when it comes to vocabulary and maybe grammar.* No when it comes to intonation and pronunciation. Most Italians speak with a local accent, which is heavily influenced by the local dialect (even if they speak no dialect, the dialectal prosody remains). only on RAI fiction channel you can find the standard/neutral accent/pronunciation, as given/indicated in Italian dictionaries. It is also used by dubbing professionals @ RAI and LA7. --- *As for grammar it's debatable, many young Italians avoid IL PASSATO REMOTO and the subjunctive, but they're part of the standard (written) grammar, and are still used in speech by Tuscan people. Edited by Medulin on 09 February 2013 at 2:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| mick33 Senior Member United States Joined 5923 days ago 1335 posts - 1632 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Finnish Studies: Thai, Polish, Afrikaans, Hindi, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish, Swedish | Message 10 of 17 09 February 2013 at 2:43am | IP Logged | |||||
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I wonder about the use of "il passato remoto". Is it heard more in certain Italian dialects? I had never known about it being used in Tuscany before, but I had read that it's still used in Southern Italy. Edited by mick33 on 09 February 2013 at 2:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5129 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 11 of 17 09 February 2013 at 6:11am | IP Logged | |||||
It's sort of a running joke among my Northern Italian friends (at least Milan westward) that Southern Italians overuse the passato remoto. It's never used in spoken Italian among my northern friends or family. But you do find it in literature, even contemporary literature. The subjunctive, contrary to what Medulin states, is still commonly used (again, talking about the north). It's only bypassed for present tense in fairly informal situations. R. == 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fabrizio Pentaglot Senior Member BelgiumRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5181 days ago 103 posts - 157 votes Speaks: Italian*, EnglishC2, French, SpanishB2, Portuguese | Message 12 of 17 09 February 2013 at 11:35am | IP Logged | |||||
Guys, I don't want to sound too harsh, but... seriously, what are we talking about?! Speaking with a local accent/pronunciation is a phenomenon you can observe in every other single language on earth. I can't understand why all these concernes and stereotypes when it comes to Italy... frankly speaking, it's ridiculous! I've never met an Italian who couldn't speak Italian, not even once in my life. With regional accent? Of course. Throwing some dialectal or slang terms in it every now and then? Certainly yes. But hey, guess what, it's still Italian. Nobody speaks like a grammar book, nowhere at this world. Italian speaking communities outside the national borders are a completely different story and, as a matter of the fact, they are not Italians - expatriates apart, obviously. I'm not surprised they speak a mixture of dialects and other languages. Language purists will be glad to learn that TV/radio speakers in Italy receive the same training as any other professional in other countries. As for the "passato remoto", its use is in decline yes, but it's a perfectly natural process and official grammars too accept it they way we use it these days. Concerning the "subjunctive", I don't honestly know what you're referring too... Edited by Fabrizio on 09 February 2013 at 6:14pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5206 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 13 of 17 11 February 2013 at 10:52am | IP Logged | |||||
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From my (quite limited) experience, the Northern Italians who I've met all tend to speak Italian quite "by the book" and use the subjunctive (Fabrizio: subjunctive = congiuntivo) etc. where one would expect, while those from the South seem to often use the imperfect subjunctive, imperfect indicative and even the conditional almost interchangeably and consider the present subjunctive optional in a lot of situations. The latter certainly aren't "uneducated" by any standard, that just seems to be how they speak, it's as if they follow slightly different rules. My friend from Puglia for example says things like "pensavo che avessi..." but "se ero lì verrei", "aspetto che lui venga" but "vuoi che vengo?", while my Northern friends would probably say "se fossi lì" and "vuoi che venga?". Maybe an Italian can shed some light on this.
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| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4667 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 14 of 17 11 February 2013 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Rome is not in the South:
''Se sapevo che rimanesse, avrei detto rimane'' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSjdiYyZyss 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fabrizio Pentaglot Senior Member BelgiumRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5181 days ago 103 posts - 157 votes Speaks: Italian*, EnglishC2, French, SpanishB2, Portuguese | Message 15 of 17 11 February 2013 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hey garyb, thank you for your clarification :) I guess it came out wrong, but of course
I know what the subjunctive mood is! Thank you though, it was really kind of you :) That being said, I have to disagree with you both guys. I'm sure "lots" of people can't speak properly, but trust me, we still get totally scandalized when someone misses the right verb tense! As for me, being Italian myself, speaking of "north" and "south" doesn't make any sense. It has nothing to do with political or issues as such, obviously. The Italian we speak nowadays is the result of economical/social phenomenons (e.g., the internal immigration we have had), cultural dynamics - you can only imagine the huge role TV has played and somehow still plays for us in shaping the national language and the way we look at it! - and many other factors. However, it goes without saying that we don't speak like Dante anymore, right? :) As for the video, c'mon... how many other stereotypes shall I fight? :) Now tell me all Italians can cook, play "calcio" and eat pizza and we're done eheheh Edited by Fabrizio on 17 February 2013 at 10:29am 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Luso Hexaglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 6060 days ago 819 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, French, EnglishC2, GermanB1, Italian, Spanish Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical) | Message 16 of 17 12 February 2013 at 2:59am | IP Logged | |||||
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Maybe I can also help a bit. After all, I chose this subject for my Italian exam's oral presentation, barely a week ago.
Historical background: - Italian is derived from vulgar Latin - Along the centuries, and due to the fragmentation of the country, several dialects developed (emerged?) - In the 14th Century (il Trecento), Florentine Toscanian became the standard for the written language (due to the illustrious trio Dante / Petrarca / Boccaccio) - Also prevalent at the time: Lombard (banking), Venetian (commerce), Ligurian (sea commerce) - Other influences: French (Northwest and South), Spanish (South), German (Northeast) - By the time of the reunification, only a small percentage (from 2,5% to 10%, depending on the study) of the population could express itself in standard Italian After the reunification: - Factors helping the standard use of the language: first, the army; afterwards, TV - Nowadays, most Italians express themselves in standard Italian, whether in formal or informal situations Some other aspects I find interesting: - Due to asymmetrical development (unemployment,...), many southerners seek traditionally State jobs; therefore, if you live in Milan or Turin your friendly policeman or postman can easily be Sicilian or Neapolitan (or so I've been told) - We heard in class a few recordings and were asked to identify accents; no one managed to do it properly, since all speakers were easy to understand and sounded alike - In some zones of Sardinia, people speak a version of Catalan - One of my teachers was a young (mid-thirties) guy from the Veneto; he told us his parents were from two villages less than 10 km apart; however, since there was a river in between, both spoke different versions of the Venetian dialect, and mocked each other's expressions; conclusion: they spoke Italian at home 1 person has voted this message useful |
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