Help with German "compound infinitives" (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Help with German "compound infinitives"
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11 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

Camundonguinho
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Brazil
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Message 9 of 11

26 December 2012 at 4:29am | IP Logged

This is called Ersatzinfinitiv
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ersatzinfinitiv

Der Ersatzinfinitiv (lateinisch infinitivus pro participio) ist ein Phänomen der deutschen Grammatik: In bestimmten Fällen ersetzt ein Infinitiv das Partizip Perfekt.

Nach den Grundregeln der Flexion des Verbs werden Perfekt und Plusquamperfekt mit haben bzw. sein und dem Partizip Perfekt gebildet. Geht aber dem Partizip eine Infinitivkonstruktion voraus, so steht bei bestimmten Verben statt des Partizips der Ersatzinfinitiv. Im Einzelnen sind das:

    alle Modalverben
    die Verben brauchen, heißen, lassen, sehen, hören, fühlen, helfen (bei den drei zuletzt genannten Verben schwankt der Gebrauch).

Der Ersatzinfinitiv nimmt immer die Position am Satzende ein; hier gilt also nicht die Regel für den Nebensatz, dass die finite Verbform am Ende steht (s. Beispiel 3)

Beispiele:

    Ich habe das nicht gewollt. – Ich habe das nicht tun wollen.
    Sie hatte es gesehen. – Sie hatte es kommen sehen.
    Du weißt, dass du das nicht gebraucht hättest. – Du weißt, dass du das nicht hättest machen brauchen.
    Er hatte es zu Hause gelassen. - Er hatte das Buch zu Hause liegen lassen.
---

In Austrian and Bavarian German, many people seem to use infinitive even when the object is expresssed.
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Bao
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Message 10 of 11

26 December 2012 at 3:10pm | IP Logged

Southern Baden-Württemberg here and I hear that kind of construction quite frequently, I also use it myself. "Aber ich glaub eh nicht, dass ich das hätte sehen können wollen!" is something I may have uttered at some point. (To say I didn't even know I didn't have the opportunity or possibility to see/watch something, but if I had known, I still wouldn't have wanted to, at least not to the extent that I would have done anything to create such an opportunity - so the other person shouldn't beat themself up over me not having had such an opportunity.)

Remember, in southern dialects (including the localized variants of Standard German) the preterite tense is only written register. That means that many students here have to learn how to form the preterite tense in school because it doesn't appear in spontaneous speech. And that includes this construction, even though it's perfectly possible to use the preterite, southern dwellers will choose the present perfect tense and then have to use this Ersatzinfinitiv.

Edited by Bao on 31 December 2012 at 4:56pm
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mrpootys
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Message 11 of 11

31 December 2012 at 2:36pm | IP Logged

Kyle Corrie wrote:

Camundonguinho wrote:

"Wir haben nicht kommen können."
is common in Austrian German and in Bavarian high language.

''Auch Vertreter der FCG und des ÖAAB schlossen sich dem an, lediglich der
freiheitliche Kollege hat nicht kommen können oder dürfen, ich weiß es nicht''.

No... no... that's not right at all. Where did you get that information from?

The only reason the sentence is built like that is because of stylistic reasons. The
speaker is using two modal verbs to say, "[...] lediglich der freiheitliche Kollege hat
nicht kommen können oder dürfen, ich weiß es nicht."

This would be similar to saying in English -- "He couldn't come... or wasn't allowed. I
don't know which."

But since he's using two modals he can't say, "Er konnte nicht kommen oder dürfen." and
build a proper sentence.

It looks like you tried to Google "kommen können" and found this Austrian website
(http://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/BR/BRSITZ/BRSITZ_00679/ SEITE_0157.html) and then
came to a ridiculous conclusion.

I don't think you have a clue about what you're talking about.

Wow the I am astounded at how full of yourself you are. In most every thread iIve read that youve
commented in. I live in Bavaria in a meltingpot of dialects and can tell you straight up that while to some
people that would sound strange, for many others that I know, the preterite is not only non existent in speech,
but couldnt be used correctly even if they had chosen to. I know plenty of native speaker here who cant even
speak hochdeutsch or any other dialect but their own. I learned that the hard way when i first arrived here
with only a knowledge of hochdeutsch. Vocabulary grammar, usage, syntax, varies in these dialects. Even
native speakers of German cant understand certain dialects at all.

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