Talk Simulator: More Fluent Conversation (Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies) Language Learning Forum

Talk Simulator: More Fluent Conversation
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Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies

15 messages over 2 pages: 1 2

Splog
Diglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
anthonylauder.c
Joined 5661 days ago
1062 posts - 3263 votes

Speaks: English*, Czech
Studies: Mandarin

Message 9 of 15

24 April 2011 at 12:45pm | IP Logged

pfn123 wrote:

If, however, you don't like the method, that's fine, feel free to use it, not use it,
adapt it, whatever. I just offer it as a tool to the members of this forum, in the hope
that it will help them with their studies.

I like your method. Please forgive me if my post came across as knocking it in any way.
My only concern is that it is not providing the claimed training for fluent
conversations. As a training for automaticity, however, I think it is mighty fine.

Edited by Splog on 24 April 2011 at 12:46pm
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pfn123
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5075 days ago
171 posts - 291 votes

Speaks: English*

Message 10 of 15

24 April 2011 at 2:23pm | IP Logged

szastprast wrote:

Thanks. WavePad seems to be a very useful tool. I've just downloaded it and am learning how to use it.

Not a problem. I'm glad it's useful.

szastprast wrote:

I just echo the recroding, something I like, movie dialogues or something else. It seems to be working fine so far. I do a lot of dictations, too. I listen to a phrase or a dialogue and then repeat it aloud and type/write it down. I try to check against the transcript if I have any, unfortunately, it is not always possible.

All very helpful things to do. I like the way you choose 'something you like'. Good idea. Good like with your studies :D
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pfn123
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5075 days ago
171 posts - 291 votes

Speaks: English*

Message 11 of 15

24 April 2011 at 2:29pm | IP Logged

Splog wrote:

I like your method. Please forgive me if my post came across as knocking it in any way.

My only concern is that it is not providing the claimed training for fluent
conversations. As a training for automaticity, however, I think it is mighty fine.

That's all right, don't worry about it. Perhaps I didn't express my thoughts as well as I could have.

You used the word 'training'. I think this word is key. This is just one way (among many) of training for conversation. But it is not conversation itself. I maintain, however, that it does help to train for conversation.

Training -- preparing for the real thing, as opposed to just learning -- is vital, I think. I like the SAS training motto: 'Train hard, fight easy.' :D
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Warp3
Senior Member
United States
forum_posts.asp?TID=
Joined 5527 days ago
1419 posts - 1766 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese

Message 12 of 15

24 April 2011 at 9:29pm | IP Logged

I really like this idea; thanks for posting it.

One thing I noticed when trying to talk face-to-face with a native Korean speaker for the first time (which I waited far too long to do) was that several very simple (and very common) questions came up which were effortless to understand, but trying to fabricate a response (even a fairly simple one) was horribly slow. In English, I don't have to do this as I've heard those questions so many times, my response is mostly (if not completely) automatic. I need to work on attaining this same automaticity to common questions and this sounds like a good way to do so without requiring a native speaker's time and effort.

In fact, this same basic reason is part of why I've started going back through Pimsleur Korean (albeit at a much faster pace than my initial use of Pimsleur) during my work commutes. None of the material is even remotely new to me now (as I started my Korean studies with Pimsleur and have used several other resources since finishing it), but my responses to the type of dialogs it contains are far from fluid yet, so I feel that can use the practice.
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pfn123
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5075 days ago
171 posts - 291 votes

Speaks: English*

Message 13 of 15

24 April 2011 at 11:52pm | IP Logged

Warp3 wrote:

I really like this idea; thanks for posting it.

Thanks. Your welcome. I'm glad you like it.

Warp3 wrote:

One thing I noticed when trying to talk face-to-face with a native Korean speaker for the first time (which I waited far too long to do) was that several very simple (and very common) questions came up which were effortless to understand, but trying to fabricate a response (even a fairly simple one) was horribly slow.

I find this method very good for practising such situations. It's also worth having certain words and structures ready. If you're response is slow in coming, it's good to know the Korean euivilants for 'hmm, let me see...', or 'ahh, well...' (Well, the Korean equivilant, obviously, lol). And, to help the conversation flow, it's good to learn the words for 'and...', 'but...', 'however...', 'altough...', 'I think that...' and so on, to link several short sentences together, like in a real conversation. Even though they're still fairly simple short sentences. I find it a boost to my confidence when I can do this.

Are you going to cut audio from Pimsleur? I'd like to hear how it all goes. Good luck with your studies. :D
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Cainntear
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Scotland
linguafrankly.blogsp
Joined 6003 days ago
4399 posts - 7687 votes

Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh

Message 14 of 15

26 April 2011 at 7:50pm | IP Logged

pfn123 wrote:

All methods of study are limited. This is limited by how wide and varied a library of clips you build. After applying this method to lesson after lesson of your learning materials, you will accumulate a large collection of questions. The growing number of items, played randomly, goes some way to removing the predictability of regular textbook studies. It promotes recall and fluency.

Removing predictability -- yes. Adding variety -- no.

Randomising the questions is a definite improvement on the fixed order of a textbook, but it's only one improvement.

Now you say that you are only limited by the number of samples, but then you say this:

Quote:

Also, progression is important. Like the example in the first post, as your knowledge of the language expands, so too should your responses, and so too should the speed and ease with which you respond

The internet could supply a near-infinite number of questions, and there would therefore be no need to repeat.

Your proposal focuses on repetition, so you are presuming there's a fairly low limit on the number of questions you're going to ask yourself.

As a technique it does have its merits, but personally, I would only use it in exam training.

Why?
Because it helps you deal with predictable questions, and conversation is rarely that predictable, but exams almost always are. There will be some improvement in general conversational ability, but the main benefit will always be in a narrow domain.

Here's a question for you:
Why audio? Why not just put the questions on flashcards?
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pfn123
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5075 days ago
171 posts - 291 votes

Speaks: English*

Message 15 of 15

01 May 2011 at 2:07pm | IP Logged

Cainntear wrote:

pfn123 wrote:

Removing predictability -- yes. Adding variety -- no.

We can't have one without the other. Removing predictability requires adding variety. But that's rather academic, I prefer practice to theory.

Cainntear wrote:

Randomising the questions is a definite improvement on the fixed order of a textbook, but it's only one improvement.

Well, one is better than none. And I'll take what I can get.

Cainntear wrote:

Now you say that you are only limited by the number of samples, but then you say this:

Quote:

The internet could supply a near-infinite number of questions, and there would therefore be no need to repeat.

Yes, the internet can do many wonderful things. I don't suggest neglecting it. But your propasal on the utilisation of the world-wide web is perhaps a little unclear, please be more specific.

Cainntear wrote:

Your proposal focuses on repetition, so you are presuming there's a fairly low limit on the number of questions you're going to ask yourself.

Sorry, could you repeat that please? ... No, seriously though, first, I don't consider it a 'proposal'. It is a 'practice' -- that is, it's not something I merely suggest, but rather something I actually do, and share it, hoping it may be of use to others. Second, why a low number? It's not about learning a little by rote, it's about recalling and using words and structures when prompted.

My library of 'clips' grows. This is what I do: when I learn a new dialogue in a textbook (or any other learning material), I look out for appropriate material, anything that would be a suitable promt. I cut out the useful audio, and save it in a folder on my computer. So, new clips are added as I learn more, and old clips are mixed together with the new, allowing revision.

Cainntear wrote:

As a technique it does have its merits, but personally, I would only use it in exam training.

Why?
Because it helps you deal with predictable questions, and conversation is rarely that predictable, but exams almost always are. There will be some improvement in general conversational ability, but the main benefit will always be in a narrow domain.

Feel free to use it any way you like. Mine are suggestions, not laws. Play around with it, or just use it for examinations. Whatever helps :D

However, you choose the questions, so they are as 'predictable' as you like. But I should prefer to be comfortable discussing the weather or politics, than giving my opinion on 'unpredictable' topics like the giant purple elephant eating strawberries on the slate roof without a hat (lol).

Cainntear wrote:

Here's a question for you:
Why audio? Why not just put the questions on flashcards?

I use flashcards as well. but flashcards generally test your knowledge, rather than promt you to use it more freely and fluently. but it would be possible to adapt flashcards to this. If you want to, go for it! Also, while reading practice is important, it's also good to have something that trains listening. When conversing in a foreign language, I have missed what was said. I need to get use to comprehending as I hear, and responding accordingly. So, I use flashcards and this.

Edited by pfn123 on 01 May 2011 at 2:09pm

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