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Julien Gaudfroy - Learn THEN understand | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Bakunin Diglot Senior Member Switzerland outerkhmer.blogspot. Joined 5122 days ago 531 posts - 1126 votes  Speaks: German*, Thai Studies: Khmer | Message 1 of 40 04 January 2011 at 9:33am | IP Logged | ||
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Somebody on Spanish-only.com has recently linked to a thread here on the forum on Julien Gaudfroy, a Frenchman who learned Mandarin to native speaker level. A forum member had some youtube videos of him posted, which started the discussion, but later Julien joined in and explained how he had learned Mandarin. It's a very interesting read, I really felt inspired. I'm not sure if the topic I suggest below has already been discussed, if so, I apologize. But if not, I would like to hear what some other language learners think of his 'key rule':
[QUOTE] My philosophy is that language is all about imitation, so learn THEN understand is the key rule. Unfortunately most education systems these days are more and more the contrary of my theory, since in order to make people feel good while learning they make sure you understand BEFORE learning. What a waste of time! Sometimes the more you think, the less you learn. Which also means that at the end you are less able to think. Think of that: the main reason why we study a language faster in its country is because we don't understand anything. You keep hearing words and wondering what they mean, and will remember them before knowing their meaning. Which means when you start using them you'll do it naturally! If I teach you a word and tell you its meaning, say, 'computer', the only thing you’ll remember after a few days is that I taught you a word which meaning was 'computer'. What was the word? Forgot it. [QUOTE END] Learn THEN understand. If I interpret this correctly, he advocates getting oral exposure to new words many times before attempting to understand them (= develop a sense for their meaning). He also emphasizes the importance of wondering about and guessing at the meaning. This is very much in contrast to most other methods discussed here (SRS, LR, Goldlist, wordlists, textbook work, translating texts, subtitles, Lingq, phrasebooks etc.), but for him it worked splendidly, and he seems to have achieved a much higher level than most (all?) youtube polyglots that study and translate. Does anybody here have experience with his way of learning? What do you think of it? Here is the original thread: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=7171&PN=11&TPN=1 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6695 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 40 04 January 2011 at 11:22am | IP Logged | ||
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Julien lived fulltime in China and used his learning methods there to learn Chinese. To compare with polyglots using SRS, LR, Goldlist, wordlists, textbook work, translating texts, subtitles, Lingq, phrasebooks etc. you should give them the same working conditions, namely a longterm stay in a relevant country where they could use their methods. And even if Julien 'won' then you can't assume that his methods would be the best for everybody else.
That being said, I do actually concur with him on one point, namely that people sometimes have a tendency to focus too much on meaning. For instance I have written about a listening technique where you deliberately don't try to make sense of native speech, but just focus on parsing the sounds into syllables, words, phrases and sentences - with the expectation that if you actually do know some of the words then their meaning will pop up in your mind automatically like when you listen to a language you know well. The point where I apparently think differently from Julien is in my belief in structured methods for the acquisition of vocabulary and idioms and in my belief in the benefits of structured grammar study. And it isn't evident that his Chinese would have been worse if he had succombed to the use of sinister contraptions like flashcards or phrasebooks during his stay in China. Edited by Iversen on 04 January 2011 at 11:24am 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| davidhowell Newbie United States Joined 5081 days ago 13 posts - 28 votes Speaks: German | Message 3 of 40 04 January 2011 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with both points. There are definitely different learning methods for everybody, however if you're
placed in a situation where you don't know the native language and MUST learn it to survive, you're apt to pick up on it and learn it with ease. I believe this is because when you cant be understood by the natives, your body is in a miniature panic mode and is scrambling to gather and apply any information that can be used to make the situation less frantic. Just a theory... 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Bakunin Diglot Senior Member Switzerland outerkhmer.blogspot. Joined 5122 days ago 531 posts - 1126 votes Speaks: German*, Thai Studies: Khmer | Message 4 of 40 04 January 2011 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks for stating your belief in structured methods, Iversen, that's appreciated. My intention, however, is not to start an argument about the merits (or the sinisterness) of flashcards and the like. I'm rather looking for accounts of practical experience with his way of learning, and, ideally, how the process and results compare to the 'understand THEN learn' approach (SRS, LR, Goldlist, wordlists, textbook work, translating texts, subtitles, Lingq, phrasebooks etc.). I appreciate that most people here feel that they are different learner types. Good on them. But I'm genuinely interested in Julien's ideas. He is a very convincing example of the effectiveness of his approach.
A request to a moderator: I didn't tag the topic myself, but it received the tag 'Mandarin'. This doesn't seem appropriate for the topic. Could you please remove this tag? Thanks. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5527 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese | Message 5 of 40 04 January 2011 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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I honestly think there could be something to this. Most of the words that seem to most solidly stick in my mind are the ones I finally looked up out of annoyance when I kept seeing / hearing them and couldn't put off learning that word any longer. (I usually write down words that catch my attention then look them up later, but if a word is insistent enough, I'll just pause the video and look it up immediately instead.) Once I learn those particular words, they are really hard to forget...possibly because I already had them floating around in my head before I actually knew what they meant.
5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Andrew C Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom naturalarabic.com Joined 5182 days ago 205 posts - 350 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written) | Message 6 of 40 05 January 2011 at 12:58am | IP Logged | ||
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His method sounds fine but I don't think you should say it is completely different to other systems. For example the LR method doesn't require you to look at the meaning until you want to. So you could do it for every word or after you get frustrated and have to look it up. The big difference as Iversen says is that Julien is living in the country and has the opportunity to use his method (which is probably the best method of all). If you are not living in the country, LR and other similar systems with sound and translations are really the only way that comes close to having the same result, I believe.
2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Sun_Wukong Newbie China Joined 5071 days ago 34 posts - 46 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 7 of 40 05 January 2011 at 9:55am | IP Logged | ||
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According to Julien he learned most of his chinese outside of China, so...
Anyways, his talent is obvious. I had no idea he spoke (unbelievably) fluent mandarin before this thread. I knew him from a program on CCTV News where he only speaks English. And I thought he was a native speaker, I had no clue he was a frenchman! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Andrew C Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom naturalarabic.com Joined 5182 days ago 205 posts - 350 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written) | Message 8 of 40 05 January 2011 at 10:51am | IP Logged | ||
Oh that makes it more impressive then. However, I think there is a missing piece to this jigsaw. How does he eventually understand the meaning? I don't believe anyone can pick up meaning just by listening - especially at the early stages of a language very different to one's own. Maybe he aksed his girlfriend or looked it up in a dictionary or something. Trying to understand a language by just listening to a disembodied tape is making your life much much harder than it is for the average child learner who is listening in context with supportive adults/parents. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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