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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 1 of 76 18 July 2012 at 3:13am | IP Logged |
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Nine friggin' years.
That's how long I've been in Japan, yet my Japanese is only at an upper beginner/lower intermediate level. I have only me to blame. I'd study devotedly for a month, then drop my studies for the next seven or eight. Wasted time. It's no excuse, but it was easy for me not to study Japanese. I speak English at work and at home with my Japanese wife. Even though I work as a teacher in a public high school, I'm paid to use my native English - and not a word of Japanese - in the classroom. I only use Japanese when I go shopping. I'm like a nine-year tourist. Moreover, I've realized that, after nine years here, I really don't like the Japanese language. I love the country, the food, and the people, but not the language. It's not pleasing to the ear like, for example, French or Portuguese. Plus it has a complicated writing system. The pronunciation for 日本 is "nihon" or "nippon", but simply swap those two kanji and make 本日, then it becomes "honjitsu." What? To sum it up: It's hard to be motivated to learn a language when you don't like it. However, I've put in the time here, I have a nice career, a nice wife, and a nice pet rabbit, plus I'm paying back the loan on a condominium we bought a few years ago after our wedding. I'm here to stay. So I must find a way to perfect my Japanese. That is my purpose, my mission. I have some reservations about starting this log, because I'm afraid it won't be a "log" per se, but rather a place to whine about my struggles. You don't get popularity ratings that way. :) However, it seems that nobody else I know is going through this type of thing, so I'm hoping that a few of you all will encourage me to keep my head down and keep at it. Edited by kujichagulia on 24 December 2013 at 4:57am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 2 of 76 18 July 2012 at 3:25am | IP Logged |
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MY CURRENT SITUATION
Last summer, while I was taking my usual eight-month break from Japanese studies, I became interested in Esperanto, and I started taking some lessons online at Lernu.net. I love the way Esperanto sounds, and I'm in love with the affix system, so I found it to be very enjoyable. I came up with a study plan and everything. Then I thought, If you can do that for Esperanto, why can't you do that with the language you need the most, Japanese? So I restarted my Japanese studies as well. Things were going well for about two months. Then I made the mistake of thinking, Why don't you drop Esperanto and just put all your free time into studying Japanese? After all, unlike Esperanto, you need to be fluent in that language. Sounded like a good idea at the time. But then I once again stopped studying Japanese after a month. For some reason, studying Esperanto motivates me to study Japanese. I can't explain it. Maybe Esperanto is a refreshing break from Japanese, a nice, light, relaxing hobby. After I do a lesson or two of Esperanto, then write a diary entry, I'm thinking, Okay, let's do the same in Japanese. And off I go. So, this June, when I restarted my Japanese studies, I made sure to restart my Esperanto studies along with it. It has made a world of difference. It's only been two months so far, but I'm still motivated and looking forward to more. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 3 of 76 18 July 2012 at 3:37am | IP Logged |
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MY CURRENT STUDY PLAN
What free time do I have? Most of my free time is on the train to and from work. That equals roughly two hours a day. At lunch time, I can squeeze in SRS reviews. After work, I cook, eat, then my wife and I go to the gym. When I get back, I have about 30 minutes for study before I go to bed at 10 PM. In short, I do my listening and writing on the train, then do some reading on the Internet at night. My only dedicated Internet time are those 30 minutes a night. I have much more computer time on the weekend at home, so that is when I enter new vocabulary into my SRS. I also study from my Japanese textbook during that time. Japanese * Do the grammar and kanji-writing exercises in An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese, published by The Japan Times * Listen to JapanesePod101.com Upper Beginner and Lower Intermediate podcasts * Read articles from News Web Easy at the NHK website * I just bought a reader from Amazon.co.jp, so when that comes, I'll use that * Write at least one journal/diary entry a week, and post one on lang-8 during the weekend for correction * Do one exercise a week using Arekkusu's Self-Talk method to practice speaking fluency * Collect any new vocab/sentences, put into SRS and review (I use Mnemosyne. Anki is better, but only if you use one computer all the time. I do my work at home and at my job, so having portable software on a USB stick is better) Esperanto * Do at least two lessons per week from a Lernu.net course (currently on Ana Pana) * Try to write at least five lines of a diary entry per week * Listen to a variety of Esperanto podcasts (passive listening, but there's something cool about just listening to people speak Esperanto) * Listen to Muzaiko.info, an Esperanto radio station (just for fun) * Collect any new vocab/sentences, put into SRS and review 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| ZombieKing Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4519 days ago 247 posts - 324 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin* | Message 4 of 76 18 July 2012 at 3:38am | IP Logged |
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The problems your experiencing can be avoided, I think. Based on the limited amount of information you've given, I'd say that the biggest reason why you're not yet fluent in Japanese is because in essence, you still live in an English speaking country. Basically, you live in English all the time, and interact with mainly English speakers. This would be like expecting to learn Japanese through living in America while speaking only in English, with other Americans, while practicing Japanese once in a blue moon.
I'm not trying to criticise you. I think it's great that you've opened yourself up to another culture, but the way you're going about learning Japanese is, as you have experienced yourself, totally ineffective. Of course, you can't just quit your job as an English teacher and get a job that requires you to speak only in Japanese. That's impractical. But something along the lines of that is what you need to do, I'd say. How many Japanese friends do you have? How many of them do you speak or at least try to communicate in Japanese with? How many of them don't speak English? Any way that you can maximize your exposure to the Japanese language will benefit you. Your wife is Japanese, maybe you can try to speak with her in Japanese whenever possible. It might be awkward and difficult at first, but everything helps. As far as what you say about burning out after a month of studying Japanese hardcore. Why don't you try and learn Japanese in a more leisurely way. Yes, I'm sure it's frustrating to not speak Japanese seeing as you've been living in Japan for almost a decade, but the fact is you don't have to be in any hurry. You have a stable job, a family, hopefully some friends, basically everything one would need to live a happy life (in my opinion). So, seeing as your situation in Japan is quite stable and not totally terrible, you can afford to go about learning Japanese at a pace that is right for you. In learning Japanese a little bit at a time, slowly, you can avoid feeling burnt out after a month, and maybe eventually you can add more time onto your daily studies as you see fit. As far as the multiple pronunciations of Kanji, well, I'm sure someone on here who speaks Japanese can help explain that to you, and help you find a way of learning Kanji that will work for you. But one reason why this is, is because all Kanji have an onyomi (Sino/Chinese) pronunciation, and a kunyomi (Japanese) pronunciation. So, every Kanji (I think) that you come across will have at least two pronunciations. If there's a compound word, sometimes a character that you're used to reading with the onyomi pronunciation (for example), will have to be pronounced with the kunyomi pronunciation. I witnessed this a lot when flipping through my dad's Essential Kanji book. Edited by ZombieKing on 18 July 2012 at 3:38am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 5 of 76 18 July 2012 at 5:02am | IP Logged |
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ZombieKing, thanks for the comments. And any criticism is most welcome. I'm here to improve.
I agree with what you are saying about virtually living in an English-speaking country. Sure, I would love to make solely Japanese-speaking friends. However, that has proven to be easier said than done. For starters, work, the gym, and home life take up most of my time, and all the Japanese people I meet in those places are interested in speaking to me in English, to improve their own skills. It's difficult for me to say, "Shut up and let me speak your language!" :) Yes, my wife is a native Japanese speaker, but she is too impatient to deal with my broken Japanese. Our Japanese conversations often end with her laughing and saying, "Just speak English, OK?" I think I need someone who is willing to sit down with me and deal with my slow, stilted Japanese. You know, people like my high school students, who have no problems striking up conversations with me in Japanese on the train. That is great practice! Of course, being high school students, interaction needs to be limited to school and the train. Regarding taking things at a more leisurely pace, you are probably right. I think that's one way studying Esperanto along with Japanese helps me, because I probably force myself to get the right amount of Japanese study every day, instead of going all in. As for kanji, I already understand the concept of onyomi and kunyomi. When I study kanji, I learn both, or all, as the case may be. Learning the different readings is not the problem. I just simply don't like it. It doesn't seem logical to me. Anyway, Japanese is what it is. There are things I don't like about my native language, but I speak it with no problem. I just need to not worry about such trivial things. It's time to accept those things and move forward. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4839 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 6 of 76 18 July 2012 at 5:23am | IP Logged |
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Yesterday I did some practice using Arekkusu's Self-Talk method. I thought about an incident at school yesterday with a trouble-making boy, thought about how I would tell the story in Japanese, and looked up and jotted down a few new vocabulary items.
Then I started to speak to my rabbit while washing dishes. It felt good and motivating at first! But then it quickly became challenging. Point #3 in the Self-Talk method says that if you make any sort of mistake, pause, or hesitation, finish your sentence and then start over from the beginning. That was fine when I was two or three lines deep into my story. However, once I got seven, eight deep, it became tiring to go back to the beginning and start over. After 20 minutes or so, I started going backwards. I was making mistakes in the first few lines when I had said them perfectly at normal speed just a few minutes before. I gave up after 30 minutes without even finishing my story. I think this proves that my "brain muscles" need a lot of work when it comes to speaking. I can write that same story in 10 minutes, but I couldn't even say it out loud with no mistakes or hesitations in 30 minutes. I do a lot of reading, listening and writing in Japanese. But I think it's my speaking that needs the most help. Doing Self-Talk once or twice a week, as time allows, should help remedy this. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Brun Ugle Diglot Senior Member Norway brunugle.wordpress.c Joined 6612 days ago 1292 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English*, NorwegianC1 Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, Spanish, Finnish | Message 7 of 76 18 July 2012 at 7:56am | IP Logged |
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I went through a similar thing after moving to Norway. Before moving, I loved the language, but after moving, I went through a period where I hated it. In my case, part of the problem was a rather severe depression, but I don't think you have that problem.
The thing is, if you have to force yourself to do something you hate, you'll probably give up eventually, so you have to find a way to like it. It's not easy at first, but just keep looking for things that you do like regarding the language and perhaps even just lie to yourself about liking it until you believe it. Once you become better, you probably will like it anyway. It feels good to be able to start using a language comfortably and it's hard not to like it then. I didn't know about Arekkusu's self-talk back then, but I did my own form of self-talk. I never went back and corrected myself, and I survived, so I think it's ok not to do so. After all, you can't do it in real life. You just have to say something like, "I mean...." and correct yourself that way and go on. And everyone hesitates sometimes, even native speakers. When you don't know a word, you just have to find a way around it using other words. You will most likely never be as good as a native speaker or have the same level of vocabulary, but you will get very fast at finding ways around words you don't know. After a while, you can do it so fast, people won't even notice. Another thing I did, was to record myself. For one thing, you can more easily spot your mistakes and weaknesses, but you also get to hear your progress when you go back and listen to an old recording. I didn't do it much myself, and I wouldn't try to do it every time because it would probably make you want to avoid self-talk because of the hassle, but doing it once in a while is good. Personally, I love the Japanese writing system. As far as I know, it is the most complex in the world, and that makes it an exciting challenge. Most (not all) kanji have at least two pronunciations and some few might have eight or ten. It's all part of the fun. As you get better, you will appreciate the way and author can give an ordinary word a subtle nuance by using a different kanji than the usual one. One example is "toru" (take). It has a number of different kanji that can be used depending what is taken and how. There are quite a few that are in normal everyday usage, but there are also others that are rarely used, but can be used to give some other nuance. There are also the fabulous puns an author can make. Usually a pun just involves using a word that sounds like another word in order to give a double meaning, but in Japanese you can even get a triple meaning by using kanji meaning one thing, but who's normal pronunciation sounds like it could mean something else, and then giving it furigana related to the meaning, but giving a subtly different meaning/feel. Complicated, but fun. I have also many times given up Japanese either because of other things that got in the way, or in frustration, but now I'm finally at a level where I can start to enjoy reading books, and I know after that, it's mostly downhill from here. I haven't gotten to that level in any of the other skill areas, but the reading makes working on those enjoyable because I know I will soon master them as well. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| ZombieKing Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4519 days ago 247 posts - 324 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin* | Message 8 of 76 18 July 2012 at 8:33am | IP Logged |
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I'm wondering if you could give us an assessment of your skills in Japanese. How good are your reading, writing, listening and speaking skills? I'm assuming you want to focus mostly on conversation? Would you say speaking or listening is more difficult for you?
If you need to improve your listening comprehension, perhaps some L & R could work for you? To help with igniting some sort of passion for Japanese, and to help keep you motivated, perhaps you can set aside some time in the day to do some very light Japanese studying? Just for fun? You'll learn a little bit, but that's not the point. The point is to reward yourself and give yourself a reason to keep learning. On the topic of your self talk stories, perhaps you can challenge yourself to present one short story you composed yourself to your wife every week? Have you thought of those intensive immersion courses? Maybe that's what you need to kick start your Japanese? Anyways, just some suggestions. I hope you'll succeed in your goal :) I'll be follownig your log and cheering you on for sure. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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