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Listening and Repeating for Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Calro2 Triglot Newbie Canada Joined 6745 days ago 26 posts - 32 votes Speaks: English*, Portuguese, French | Message 1 of 23 21 February 2010 at 10:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi forum members. I could do with some of your advice. Even though I'm at an advanced level in my languages, I feel as if I need to make some more leaps in progress before I can comfortably move to the "maintenance/slight improvements" stage and start learning new languages that have been on the back burner for a long time. In my frustration I did a google search and came across the following website: http://nativecoach.net/how_i_got_fluent.html.
I was thinking that this could be the boost I need to gain more confidence and move on to other languages. I'm going to experiment with this method, but I'm wondering how to make the most out of it. I tried it with one of my audio recordings, but I was wondering whether it matters if I do this using a transcript (to remember word-for-word what was said, not because I didn't understand what was said). For example, I can usually remember the main points, but not every filler word that is used in a person's speech. I think some forum members have used a similar method by splitting up sentences using Audacity and making each sentence a separate mp3 file, but I couldn't find the posts. If anyone has used this type of method, could you let me know what your experience with it was like? Oh, and another thing. Do you believe it's possible to get similar results from just reading aloud a lot if you already have a very good accent in the language? Thank you! Edited by Calro2 on 21 February 2010 at 10:12pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ocius Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5595 days ago 48 posts - 77 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Ancient Greek Studies: French, Latin, Sanskrit | Message 2 of 23 22 February 2010 at 1:55am | IP Logged | |||||
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Listening/Reading and repeating is always a good idea, regardless of what level you're
at. As far as the best way to go about it, I'd imagine it depends on what you feel works best for you. Some people like Shadowing, some like individual sentences for SRS input, etc. Either way, I strongly believe that you should repeat every word. Regardless of whether you understand what was said without remembering every word, you're missing a vital part of the living language when you let yourself skip words. Personally, for learning German, I used Anki for sentences; I copied out many of the FSI drills and imported them for SRS drilling (just reading and repeating -- no audio). The way I used them is to make German-English cards; I'd read the German sentence aloud, then close my eyes and repeat the sentence (making sure, obviously, that I understood everything I was saying). I'd then flip to the answer side, read the translation, then repeat the German a final time (aloud). Though it may seem tedious, it really helped to internalize the grammatical structures. After a certain point, though, it obviously just becomes a matter of vocabulary and input. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Calro2 Triglot Newbie Canada Joined 6745 days ago 26 posts - 32 votes Speaks: English*, Portuguese, French | Message 3 of 23 22 February 2010 at 3:48am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks Ocius for your detailed response. I think I should clarify something about the filler words. I do repeat them, but my question was whether it is less effective to repeat what I hear from a transcript, in order to make sure I get every filler word that I may easily forget if I just try to repeat the sentence from the memory of what I heard. The French language is the best example I can use for this. If I can't remember the precise placement of every utterance of "donc", "alors", "ben", etc., I would feel more comfortable doing my vocal repetitions while reading the transcript to make sure I'm not missing anything. I too believe the filler words, pauses, etc. are an important part of the living language.
The thought of shadowing did cross my mind. I used it early on in my French studies. While I believe it may have helped me in developing a better accent, I found it completely tedious and wouldn't want to try it again. I don't think I got any other major benefits out of it. I keep starting SRS-like programs and quickly abandon them. The few activities I've been able to stick with are watching news and TV shows, listening to audiomagazines and podcasts, reading novels and news sites, dictation from sound recordings (this can be very time consuming, but I do enjoy doing it when I have time), and reading aloud while following along with a transcript and listening to a sound recording that is slightly slowed down. The last one probably sounds like shadowing, but I think of shadowing as something done without a transcript (maybe that's why it was torture for me, and I always did it at native speed using real life conversations). I think reading aloud while listening and reading has been helpful, but maybe I move on too quickly - this is where I was thinking the native coach method might make a difference. Maybe practicing each sentence over and over rather than reading through a whole recording in one go might be even more effective. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ocius Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5595 days ago 48 posts - 77 votes Speaks: English*, German, Ancient Greek Studies: French, Latin, Sanskrit | Message 4 of 23 22 February 2010 at 4:13am | IP Logged | |||||
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Shadowing isn't supposed to be done without a transcript, so that may be why it was
so frustrating! :P Whenever I do any kind of "shadowing," I always use a transcript unless the material is so familiar to me that I don't feel I need one. Trying to shadow something at native speed without a transcript is nearly impossible (unless you have most of the recording memorized) and typically an exercise in frustration. I also rarely do any "listen-repeat" exercises unless I have a transcript. The only time I'd consider doing it without a transcript is if the recording consisted of single- sentences with pauses in between to repeat (or if I paused it myself every sentence), but that gets boring very quickly beyond the beginner-level. Edit: Also, "shadowing" proper is probably not the best way to spend your time once you're at an intermediate-advanced level -- at least not in my experience. Shadowing was always my way of memorizing a dialogue with correct pronunciation, etc., rather than something that truly helped me understand the language. Listening/reading- repeating full sentences while consciously training yourself to think the phrase you're uttering in the target language got me much more mileage as far as real comprehension/internalization of the language is concerned. Edited by Ocius on 22 February 2010 at 4:21am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Calro2 Triglot Newbie Canada Joined 6745 days ago 26 posts - 32 votes Speaks: English*, Portuguese, French | Message 5 of 23 25 February 2010 at 1:26am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm happy to try anything other than shadowing, so I hope you're right about more effective tools at this stage :). I did my shadowing without reading along with transcripts because I first heard of the method through fluent french (on the website it's called echoing), and the stated aim was to say what you hear without needing to consult the transcript.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6914 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 6 of 23 25 February 2010 at 1:54am | IP Logged | |||||
Says who?
I do all my shadowing without transcripts (German, Spanish, Russian, Irish, Chinese), just as I pick up music by ear in real time. My shadowing isn't 100%, but I learn more from that than reading along (or using written music...). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Ocius Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 5595 days ago 48 posts - 77 votes Speaks: English*, German, Ancient Greek Studies: French, Latin, Sanskrit | Message 7 of 23 25 February 2010 at 5:49am | IP Logged | |||||
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While you certainly can "shadow" without transcripts, the way that is typically discussed
on this forum involves a transcript. If it works for you, no reason not to do it, of course. But since Cairo suggested that shadowing hasn't worked for him without a transcript, the next step would be to try it in the more "typical" way discussed on this forum -- i.e., with a transcript. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6914 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 8 of 23 25 February 2010 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
I don't agree. I depends on your learning stage, and why you're shadowing. There are a lot of people who obviously mix things up, or don't "get it" despite ProfArguelles' numerous explanations (in threads, and videos). In one of them, he rewinds a tape with a recording of what he has just said, and starts shadowing it... Time for tea. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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