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Latvian stands firm against Russian. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 6106 days ago 707 posts - 1220 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 9 of 91 19 February 2012 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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That's a good question Mapk!
It's a very tricky one. If Russian was accepted as an official language, what would be the consequences be for Latvian language, identity and culture? Do Latvian nationalists see the vote as a Kremlin-backed attempt to weaken their country's sovereignty in order to push it back into Russia's sphere of influence? I really don't know, but I think that it's reasonable for foreign residents to be required to learn the host nation's language and to be given full citizenship, ideally with their language recognised as official. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 10 of 91 19 February 2012 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
They do learn Latvian, the state however did not provide them free courses. But don't you see the difference? Latvia is a bilingual country, but only one language is chosen to be official. There are cities (the second largest city) which are fully Russian speaking. Riga is half Russian. They were not given citizenship because their ancestors did not have Latvian citizenship before 1940! Some Russians had such ancestors but still. Why are their rights violated? Canada has two official languages and is still independent. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 11 of 91 19 February 2012 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
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foreign residents
They are not foreign residents. That's like Wales would become independent and make Welsh the only official language there. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 12 of 91 19 February 2012 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Nothing will happen with the Latvian language. As nothing has happened with English in
Canada. Do Latvian nationalists see the vote as a Kremlin-backed attempt to weaken their country's sovereignty in order to push it back into Russia's sphere of influence? That's their craziness. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 13 of 91 19 February 2012 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm not sure if oppressing Russian is the idea since the Latvian government penalizes people through its laws for not knowing Latvian instead of speaking Russian. If I were to move to Latvia, I would be subject to the same conditions in that my application for Latvian citizenship would be dependent on passing an exam of proficiency in Latvian (in addition to one on Latvian history/culture). It wouldn't (nor shouldn't) matter one iota to Latvians that I can speak English and French fluently since for me to belong to this nation state, I would need to follow its laws. As a free man, it's up to me to determine if that's acceptable or not rather than insist that I be exempted from the relevant laws.
In any case, I have mixed feelings about this since having put things to a vote in this way was a sure-fire way to inflame emotions and underline the social separation between Latvians and Russians (which only drags the language into the mess since the respective languages have also become markers for one's loyalty to the "tribe" rather than simple means of communication unburdened by political idiocy). If I were a Latvian Russian, I would have preferred if there'd been no vote presented since it needlessly raised the social tension and reinforced the stereotype of my being some kind of semi-educated stick in the mud pining for the days when the Kremlin ruled Latvia. Honestly what would the vote really accomplish? If the vote's result had gone the other way, would the Latvian Russians have been that much better off? It's not as if people live in bubbles immune to perceptions from the neighbours or strangers. In this case the resentment would still be there as a vote could not alleviate that. Unfortunately Latvia has to live with the legacy of and reaction to Russification implemented by previous rulers. There's just no easy solution given the inevitably polarizing consequence of that policy. 9 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 14 of 91 19 February 2012 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm not sure if oppressing Russian is the idea since the Latvian government penalizes
people through its laws for not knowing Latvian instead of speaking Russian. If I were to move to Latvia, I would be subject to the same conditions in that my application for Latvian citizenship would be dependent on passing an exam of proficiency in Latvian (in addition to one on Latvian history/culture). It wouldn't (nor shouldn't) matter one iota to Latvians that I can speak English and French fluently since for me to belong to this nation state, I would need to follow its laws. As a free man, it's up to me to determine if that's acceptable or not rather than insist that I be exempted from the relevant laws. You cannot compare you with them. They lived in Latvia before the independence, sometimes for many years, many of them were born there, why can't they get the citizenship automatically? They used to have equal rights in the Soviet times. But one day many of them were declared noncitizens, there language was forcely stopped being used in many spheres, they were declared to be occupants. Imagine Wales gains independence and all those who don't know Welsh are not given citizenship. English is restricted there. How would you feel? Those people were decepted. They were promised to have equal rights and many of them voted for independence onthe referendum, but then everything was different. Edited by Марк on 19 February 2012 at 6:29pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 15 of 91 19 February 2012 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
I would only kick up a fuss if I would not be given a chance to learn Welsh to a sufficient degree in some defined time (say 1-3 years). Your scenario with Wales fails to deal with the means allowed for me to comply with the law or requriement. Therefore if I would want to stay, then so be it and off I'd go to learn Welsh to pass an exam. Otherwise I go somewhere else where I can live under a law that's more to my liking. That's not easy but neither is it to stay in a society where I refuse to meet some criterium. It's not worth the aggravation. From what I understand the scenario that you present with Wales is NOT the case in Latvia with the Russians. I'll say it again: the vote in my view deals with the wrong questions. The Russians living there were not threatened with eviction or instant discrimination when the USSR collapsed but rather their obtaining of citizenship in the successor state depended on adhering to the new laws and constitution put forth by the suceeding Latvian government (and it's not as if a Russian with no criminal record but found guilty of stealing a car for the first time would be punished more harshly than a Latvian with no criminal record but found guilty of doing the same in 2012 as you seem to suggest when comparing life in the Latvian SSR and Latvia). In this case they had to demonstrate competency in Latvian and pass another exam on Latvian history and culture by a certain date since as Russians they did not learn such things or those aspects were not part of their heritage (why would they?). Of course the nationalists make this more than about passing a language test and conflate it with human rights or even "cultural genocide" (*blech* enough with the hyperbole!). On one hand Latvian nationalists see this as revenge for Russification while Russian nationalists treat this as yet another example of Russian victimhood. Damn it, I have no sympathy for either view since they're hijacking language for political aims. In any case as I stated before the vote's result either way would mean no real change for anyone apart from a certain elevation of resentment (basically, way to stir the pot!) Just because a language is made official doesn't necessarily mean things are better for the people pushing for it. French in Canada is virtually restricted to Quebec and a few pockets in the country and yet you still have goofiness about the position of French and it seems to provide a nice excuse for certain lobbyists or politicians to distract the government or make excuses - not to mention the dubious results of teaching an official language to schoolchildren who live where the language has practically no currency. Swedish in Finland isn't exactly sailing smoothly since even with the legal protection in place, Finns wonder whether it's worth the expense to maintain that much infrastructure and support for a language spoken by a minority that's already well-supported and in no danger of extinction thanks to its use in Sweden. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5561 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 16 of 91 19 February 2012 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm honestly perfectly fine with that, although I can see that it would probably upset most English people. You may not know, but there is already a process of Welshification underway in Wales, and learning the language is obligatory in Schools. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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