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The English Generic ’You’ | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 17 of 22 12 March 2012 at 10:30am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well, I also expressed myself in slightly joking terms, but there is some foundation for the claim that the generic use of "you" is a bad habit which unfortunately became generalized and now seeps into other languages.
I use English quite a lot, but I still can't speak to someone and hear or use the generic 'you' without feeling some kind of uneasiness. And seeing or hearing Danish speakers import this feature and say "du" in the same situation does actually irritate me because it over a generation or so might lead to the loss of our own well-functioning system based on the word 'man' (the situation in German is the same). The situation about "(s)he" is just as awkward, but here Danish is just as deficient as English. You can of course say that English is your language and that Anglophones are the only ones who are allowed to voice an opinion about features in it. But the price for becoming a world language is that you can't have it in peace any longer. Edited by Iversen on 12 March 2012 at 10:37am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5561 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 18 of 22 12 March 2012 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I don't know if their's any grammatical distinction, but there seems to me to be a difference between certain usages which have no possibility of confusion, e.g.
"this is the sort of washing powder you can find in any supermarket" which is clearly generic, and: "in such a situation, you have to hold your nerve" which is ambiguous, but actually totally unimportant as it will be apparent from context, or even if it isn't obvious, the distinction is pretty irrelevant; and a sentence like: "You should be able to pass those exams just by hard work and memorisation", which is ambiguous. Hopefully in speech it would be made clear, but in writing you should try to express yourself more precisely. That's why good written style is different from spoken style. Edited by schoenewaelder on 12 March 2012 at 7:39pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ygangerg Pentaglot Senior Member United States Joined 5319 days ago 100 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Arabic (Written), Mandarin, French Studies: German | Message 19 of 22 12 March 2012 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Schoenewaelder, that's a good point.
Iversen, I see the need to be clear in speech, but I've never encountered an issue understanding what is meant with the generic "you," nor the neutral singular "they," for that matter. The system is up and functioning. What is this foundation you speak of for your claim? In what way is a particular grammatical anomaly a "bad habit" (besides differing from what the Latinist grammarians prescribed in the Victorian days of yesteryear)? I think "uneasiness" doesn't cut it. And please don't think my point was that Anglophones are the only ones allowed to voice an opinion about English. I know English more or less belongs to the world, and I know everyone is entitled to their opinion. My point, which I guess I didn't flesh out too clearly, was that these are things that will change by their own inertia. We can evaluate English from the standpoint of other languages and think up ways to engineer it differently, but the point is moot. It is what it is, and communicatively we're not just getting by with it, we're doing great. In fact, I think the existence of both generic 'one' and generic 'you' serves nicely to provide a choice of register. That's my opinion, just as yours is that it's a bad habit. In reality, there will be no foundation for the claim that it's a "bad habit." Edited by Ygangerg on 12 March 2012 at 3:21pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 20 of 22 12 March 2012 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The foundation is simply that "you" in face to face conversations can be taken to refer to the population at large or to the person you are speaking to or even to yourself .. or to a vaguely defined mixture of all these.
For instance, if I say "you shouldn't suggest improvements to another person's native language" then it could be a harsh criticism if your interlocutor takes it as a personal criticism, but it could also be a polite advice to mankind in general, and because mankind isn't listening it isn't offensive in any way then. Or it could even be taken as a reminder to yourself about staying out of certain discussions - but just to make sure: this is not my intended meaning in the present case. Mostly you can deduct the intention from the context or nonverbal cues, but it is nevertheless a source of confusion which maybe could/should have been avoided - but I agree that it is too late now in English. I just hope we can avoid it in other languages like Danish and German. Edited by Iversen on 12 March 2012 at 3:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ygangerg Pentaglot Senior Member United States Joined 5319 days ago 100 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Arabic (Written), Mandarin, French Studies: German | Message 21 of 22 12 March 2012 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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As a native speaker, I guess I just "get it" so it's no problem. If we think about it though, it seems this thing functions in tandem with the English article system. If someone says "You shouldn't suggest improvements to a target language," I'll take it as a generic "you." If someone says "You shouldn't suggest any improvements to this target language," I'll know they're addressing me.
Hypothetical questions like "What if you went to the moon?" are taken as generic unless it's clearly a suggestion stemming from the conversation: "I can't escape this fate!" "What if you went to the moon?" Or if we have a personal context: "What if you went to the moon with your cousin?" Now I'm just having fun splitting hairs. I see the ambiguity you see, but I think it's almost always resolved in the same breath. Edited by Ygangerg on 12 March 2012 at 3:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5227 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 22 of 22 12 March 2012 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Oh, that! At last! :) Yes, it can be kind of irritating, but I find it less irritating than addressing unknown individuals informally (German 'generic du' and similar stuff which can be clearly offensive) because...
anyone mastering a language to a sufficiently high level should be able to spot when a statement can be misinterpreted and pre-emptively clarify when necessary, just as you mentioned and ygangerg elaborated on above while I was typing this.
Amen ;) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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