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Should I learn "In accent" or not? | ||
Tags: Accent | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6019 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 25 of 34 08 August 2009 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
There's no difference between B and V -- that's not what I'm saying. What I'm talking about is the different between non-intervocalic B (or V) and intervocalic B (or V), which has been discussed various times here before. Intervocalic means "between vowels" and non-intervocalic means "not between vowels". The sound of the two Vs in revolver is different, because the first is intervocalic and the second is non-intervocalic, because it's directly preceded by L, a consonant. It's a non-phonemic difference, so there's no strict need to learn it -- you will be understood without it. It doesn't make a lot of sense when reading the rules, but if you do it, it just starts to become natural.
The vast majority of people here say they don't like methods. The vast majority do not attack other members. Now, I've been criticised in the past for expressing my opinions as though they were facts and I've been trying to stop that. But now I'm being criticised for expressing my opinions instead of facts -- what exactly do you want me to do?!?
Fine, then we disagree on that, and we've both said why. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| simonov Senior Member Portugal Joined 5597 days ago 222 posts - 438 votes Speaks: English | Message 27 of 34 09 August 2009 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
No need for technical words, they just confuse people. You seem to think I am a complete idiot who does not know those words, I just do not see how they help, especially non-phonemic. That is why I said: listen carefully and check the sounds.
The vast majority, who are they? Most people seem to use methods, at some point of their learning: Pimsleur, FSI, Assimil, MT...... And I have been reading Charlmartel's posts, he has never attacked you, he has done exactly the same thing you do, expressed his opinion. He has occasionally told you to look at your own basic mistakes when you say things like you know it all better than everybody else. You criticize all and everything, now you criticize me for giving my opinion. This post is about "learn in accent", I have stuck to that topic: what we should do to sound as good as we can without becoming ridiculous. It is much better to have a light accent but speak fluently and correctly than to speak like a native but make horrible mistakes, like use wrong gender and endings. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6019 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 28 of 34 09 August 2009 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Sorry, when you said "tuvo" and "tubo", that suggested you didn't understand what I was saying. I stand corrected.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough there. The majority of people here say that they don't like one or two methods in particular -- I didn't mean they don't like all methods. My fault -- I should have made my point clearer.
He started popping up in threads just to tell me how wrong I was, misquoting -- out of context -- things I'd said sometimes months before.
I'm not criticising you, I'm disagreeing with you. And as you disagree with me, that makes us equal, doesn't it? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| roncy Pentaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5925 days ago 105 posts - 112 votes Speaks: French*, English, German, Spanish, Latin | Message 29 of 34 10 August 2009 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Just for the record, it is not very important because Charlmartell has left, but I think you blaming him for something he didn't do is unfair and should be corrected. He didn't pop up in threads just to tell you how wrong you were, well no more than you pop up in other people's to tell them the same thing. He questioned some of your statements the same way you question other people's. So where is the difference? He never misquoted you, your mistakes were real. And the only time he quoted you in part out of context, was about South American accents. Here, in the thread "Spanish ’V’" when you set yourself up as the overall Spanish pronunciation specialist, a little like here in this thread. You denied that you ever said that. Charlmartell did not seem to bother to check, so now I've done it. I had a lot of time on my hands this morning! This is where you said it, not verbatim, but the meaning was there as shown by the 2 responses to your claim, in the thread "Bad Spanish" where you set yourself up as the specialist of Latin American accents. You did not say, as you should have, "I have read somewhere that....", no, you stated it all as facts you had personally verified. How could you? You haven't travelled the length and breadth of Central and South America, or of Spain, as far as I know. Otherwise your Spanish would have been better and you wouldn't have made those unfortunate beginners' mistakes, that even I, with 6 months of Spanish and no immersion, would not have made. I understand full well why Charlmartell, who knows languages, got so irritated he decided to leave. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6019 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 30 of 34 10 August 2009 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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There's a difference between "like" and "just like", and "a lot of" and "most". He overstated what I said to try to make me look bad. I could have said as much then, but I'm too easily goaded into feeding a troll, and I decided to try to stop reacting to his posts. When he started writing responses on the topic at hand, I gave him responses on the topic at hand -- and a week after starting to do so, he left.
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| roncy Pentaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5925 days ago 105 posts - 112 votes Speaks: French*, English, German, Spanish, Latin | Message 31 of 34 13 August 2009 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I'm afraid this hasn't got anything to do with the topic of this thread, but Cainntear's last post can't be allowed to stand unchallenged.
It really doesn't matter whether Charlmartell said "just like" and "most", the fact is you were wrong setting yourself up as the expert on accents when you clearly are not. Denying ever saying that was calling him a liar. Now you insinuate he's a troll! I think you should look up the definition of a troll, trolls troll all over the forum: he had 321 posts in 662 days versus your 1392 posts in 391 days, his 0.5 posts a day versus your 3.3 Besides, his were mostly about actual active language learning and participation in foreign language threads, not argumentative, finding fault with everything and everybody. Look at his profile, check his posts. Of course you'll find a few less charitable ones, when someone overdid the irritating, like Bacchanalian for instance, and you of course. And when he was wrong, he always acknowledged, not condoned his mistake, and apologized. Whereas you do what Volte said a little higher up in this thread.
What do you mean? He told you quite clearly why he left. You giving him responses is nothing new, you've been doing that all along, misinterpreting his words, just like you've been doing here, not just his, everybody's. Re-read Volte's post. Your last post was inadmissable and once you'd cooled down a little you should have deleted it as totally uncalled for gratuitous slander. Pretending he left with his tail between his legs, beaten by your superior debating skills, shown up as a pathetic troll who couldn't measure up! Really! Edited by roncy on 13 August 2009 at 5:54pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6019 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 32 of 34 13 August 2009 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
That wasn't what I intended to say -- I wasn't trying to suggest I'd "beaten" him or anything of the sort. There is a general problem on the net -- and I'm as bad for this as anyone -- of making assumptions about other people's views, misinterpreting them and overreacting to them. When you attack someone's mistakes, you turn the mistake into a weakness, and force the other party to defend themselves. When you calmly point out mistakes, people don't get defensive and apologise. When someone takes your mistakes across threads, he is using them as weaknesses -- he is attacking you, and your natural reaction is to defend yourself. This is not conducive to debate and I've tried my best not to react, but sometimes I did. What I have tried to take away from this is to be careful about how I express my disagreement with others so as not to make them defensive, and to allow debate to continue. Right, I'm done. Feel free to have the final word. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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