24 messages over 3 pages: 1 2 3
Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6703 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map
| Message 17 of 24 04 May 2011 at 1:00pm | IP Logged |
Haukilahti wrote:
Iversen wrote:
An example: when I do my 'green sheets' with morphology I try always to keep the same sequence of basic cases as I learned in Latin: Nominative, Accusative, Genitive, Dative, Ablative. The Vocative mostly fit above Nominative, and instead of Ablative you find Instrumental and Prepositional/Locative in Russian, in that order. The funny thing is that almost all grammars for Slavic languages I have seen move Accusative past the Genitive, but actually the logical postition is between the Nominative and the Genitive whose forms it often 'borrows'. |
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The Slavic order is taken directly from the normal Latin order, which is Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, (Vocative), Ablative. |
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When I learnt Latin in Denmark forty years ago the order was the one I specified above. Maybe there are some country specific traditions.
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| Haukilahti Triglot Groupie Finland Joined 4964 days ago 94 posts - 126 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Polish
| Message 18 of 24 04 May 2011 at 1:15pm | IP Logged |
You might guess where I learnt Latin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_in_Latin#Order_of_D eclension_in_Various_Curricula
;-)
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| crafedog Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5818 days ago 166 posts - 337 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Korean, Tok Pisin, French
| Message 19 of 24 04 May 2011 at 1:20pm | IP Logged |
Ari wrote:
Instead of arguing about the project, I'll just supply some more info to
help it along, then. The main gist of my previous post was actually meant to be
informative, rather than complainy. |
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Either way, you raised some good points that need to be considered in the future so
thanks for that.
Ari wrote:
So here's how it works in Swedish: We do have definite and indefinite
articles. They agree with the gender of the noun (we have two genders: 'utrum' and
'neutrum') and their position determines if they're definite or indefinite. So "En bil"
= "A car", "bilen" = "the car". "Ett papper" = "A paper", "Papperet" = "The paper".
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I'm such a language nerd. Literally my first thought was "Wow, that's really cool!" I'm
glad no-one was around to hear it.
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| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6011 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh
| Message 20 of 24 04 May 2011 at 8:39pm | IP Logged |
Ari wrote:
crafedog wrote:
As for the Articles entry, for example, some people might not know that Russian does not use articles (right?) but a quick glance at the thread in this 'project' would correct that mis-assumption. I see your mother tongue is Swedish; I honestly don't know at all if Swedish has definite/indefinite article(s). If it does, I don't how many it has, what they look like, if they change etc. I would love to know any detail you could provide about it (or any other language) hence this project. |
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Instead of arguing about the project, I'll just supply some more info to help it along, then. The main gist of my previous post was actually meant to be informative, rather than complainy.
So here's how it works in Swedish: We do have definite and indefinite articles. They agree with the gender of the noun (we have two genders: 'utrum' and 'neutrum') and their position determines if they're definite or indefinite. So "En bil" = "A car", "bilen" = "the car". "Ett papper" = "A paper", "Papperet" = "The paper". |
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But here again we've got the argument that an "article" is a clitic, but Danish uses a suffix.
The notion of article is, like much of our traditional grammar, based on Italic and Germanic structure.
I would say the most neutral term comes out of Ari's post: "specifiers".
eg
Within English, most "specifiers" are clitics of the word class "determiners".
Determiners include "this"/"that", articles , and possessives (my, your etc)
In addition to determiners, nouns can be specified by a noun in the possessive (eg "John's").
(And continue to expand of redirect the reader to another place where the concept is dealt with.)
This lets us put things in the same place based on function rather than form, and lets us deal with each language in its own terms.
Now it no longer matters whether the Cantonese thing is an article or not, and we don't have to call the Danish/Swedish/Norwegian definite suffix an "article" simply to get it in the right part of the resource.
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| crafedog Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5818 days ago 166 posts - 337 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Korean, Tok Pisin, French
| Message 21 of 24 05 May 2011 at 9:39am | IP Logged |
I begun a new thread called APCG Project - Alphabet/Writing Systems in the "Collaborative
Writing" sub-forum. Please contribute to it as well as this one.
1
[edit: having real problems with hyperlinks today. Click the 1, look in the subforum or
browse my posts]
Edited by crafedog on 05 May 2011 at 11:13am
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| Lianne Senior Member Canada thetoweringpile.blog Joined 5115 days ago 284 posts - 410 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, Toki Pona, German, French
| Message 22 of 24 03 June 2011 at 10:17pm | IP Logged |
Is this still going on? I was having fun. :) I don't think I have anything more to add to the alphabet one, but I can talk about Esperanto on other topics!
1 person has voted this message useful
| crafedog Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5818 days ago 166 posts - 337 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Korean, Tok Pisin, French
| Message 23 of 24 05 June 2011 at 6:54am | IP Logged |
Lianne wrote:
Is this still going on? I was having fun. :) I don't think I have
anything more to add to the alphabet one, but I can talk about Esperanto on other
topics! |
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It didn't really get enough interest in it unfortunately. Considering all the users on
this forum who speak/learn many languages yet as of now we've only managed to get 3
users to contribute, it's not a very good sign of this project taking off. If users
won't even contribute to something as simple as the alphabet, then getting them to
contribute to something more complex/detailed is not looking good.
Shame. I thought it would've been interesting for others. If we get some more
contributions, I'll add them and if we get a decent amount of languages I'll start part
2 but for now we'll have to wait and see I guess.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Lianne Senior Member Canada thetoweringpile.blog Joined 5115 days ago 284 posts - 410 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, Toki Pona, German, French
| Message 24 of 24 06 June 2011 at 12:12am | IP Logged |
:( That's a shame. I think this project is a really good idea. If it does continue, I'll definitely contribute what I can to each topic.
1 person has voted this message useful
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