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Informal and formal "you" | ||
Tags: Polite/Informal Forms | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5009 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 25 of 32 07 August 2011 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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An interesting topic, I was surprised to see the difference between Spain and Colombia, as it is the same language, I wouldn't have expected it.
I'm curious about Asian countries, since I've heard this rules tend to be more important and more complicated there (I just heard that, don't know where) In Czech Republic, adults, unless they are friends, use polite form "vy", children use "vy" when adressing teachers, unknown adults etc. Teachers use informal "ty" to children but it varies at highschool. When I was at highschool, most of our teachers, and especially the really good ones we all respected, used "vy" when addressing us. The bad ones sometimes tried to build respect by using "ty" but it never worked of course. The harder choice comes among younger adults, when I can't easily tell whether the person is a student or teacher. In that case I use "vy" and risk to seem ridiculous (usually we both laugh to such mistake). But I was surprised when another student adressed me "vy" in a situation where this was clear. It might be a trend all over Europe but I can't tell whether it is a good one. On one hand, it makes people closer to each other which is often pleasant, on the other hand using the polite form is an important symbol of mutual respect, which is a value often underestimated these days. I've read a book by an American living in Czech Republic for about fifteen years and there was a chapter about this. I'll try to be brief. The (non)existence of polite form is an important characteristics of usual relations and social interactions in the culture. Basicly he said that the Americans, who do not have polite and impolite form, easily make superficial friendships, adress each other with name immediately which is often nice but it somehow makes it more difficult to create or recognize more deep friendship. Czech, and other languages with similar understanding of the matter such as French, make people start at the point of respect and, when the appropriate situation comes, enjoy the moment of "potykání si" (the woman/older person/superior offers the other to mutually use "ty"). Of course it doesn't remove superficial or false friendships, of course not, and it doesn't say older people can't use "vy" even if they are close friends, but in general it still quite applies. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tibbles Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5191 days ago 245 posts - 422 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Korean | Message 26 of 32 08 August 2011 at 10:15am | IP Logged | ||
Teensy correction: the formal you is 2nd tone in Mandarin: nín And on the subject of the Danish "De", when I lived there in 1994 there was one secretary (age early 60's) in our department who insisted on using De and expected to be addressed in the same manner. The only other place I ever heard De there was once at the airport customs when an inspector randomly asked a passenger "Hvor kommer DE fra?". Edited by tibbles on 08 August 2011 at 10:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Arti Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 7012 days ago 130 posts - 165 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: French, Czech | Message 27 of 32 11 August 2011 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | ||
I have no idea about the evolution, it seems to me that there's no difference between as it was used before (in Soviet days) and as it is used now. (I can't say anything about tsarist times), but I suppose it was almost the same may be more strict for children who called their parents by formal "vy". In Russian usage of "ty" and "vy" is pretty much the same as in other languages like French or Czech described here earlier. May be there's less distance between people due to internet, however even here you can see "vy", everything depends on the topic and on the site - people who talk about politics, literature and art, some "serious" things, companies who answer their clients online, prefer to use "vy", "ty" is used in discussing music, movies, etc. It all depends on many factors, however there are few forums where people respect each other and don't insult opponents ( I mean politics first of all)... When talking to strangers you are expected to use "vy" of course. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Lugubert Heptaglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6867 days ago 186 posts - 235 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Danish, Norwegian, EnglishC2, German, Dutch, French Studies: Mandarin, Hindi | Message 28 of 32 19 September 2011 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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As remarked, Sweden is fairly similar to Norway and Denmark. We used to have "ni" (vous) and "du" (tu), but starting in 1967, "du" took over the lot.
BUT there's a fairly recent renaissance for "ni", mostly among young shop assistants and the like when addressing a markedly older person. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4828 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 29 of 32 20 September 2011 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | ||
Interesting. I remember in one of the Wallander books (which I read in translation of course), he refers to someone using the polite verion of "you", and thinks he's being rather snobbish/over-formal/stand-offish, or whatever. This would have been written some time in the 1990s I think. The shop assistant thing is a bit like the use of "Sir"/"Madam" in England. Just about only used in (some) shops and by the police addressing members of the public (and in the latter case, it always sounds sarcastic even if it isn't meant to be). At the other extreme, there is also a bit of a tendency for people in shop, or telesales situations to get on first-name terms rather rapidly, which (maybe it's an age thing) I still find a bit of a shock. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Remster Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 4805 days ago 120 posts - 134 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English Studies: German, French | Message 30 of 32 04 October 2011 at 10:35am | IP Logged | ||
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This has already been said, but I'd like to respond as well.
Dutch indeed uses both jij and u, we also have je. In short, ''je'' is simply ''you'', ''jij'' is the same but you place an emphasis on the person in question and ''u'' is formal. Parents nowadays are ''jij'd'', by their children, the same goes for grandparents. Perhaps older generations still use ''u'' in this situation''. When being polite you almost always say ''u''. When lost you ask: ''Could you (please) show me where the ... is?'' In Dutch you'll always use ''U'' here, that's the best thing to do, when in the Netherlands. ''Zou u mij kunnen vertellen/laten zien waar de/het ... is?'' So it's: Can you grab that? - Kan je dat even pakken? No, YOU must grab that. - Nee, JIJ moet dat pakken. Could you please get that for me? - Zou u dat alstublieft voor mij willen pakken? alsjeblieft (Please) informal alstublieft (please) Formal. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Saiff Bilingual Pentaglot Newbie PakistanRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4786 days ago 2 posts - 2 votes Speaks: English, Pashto*, Urdu*, Potwari, Punjabi Studies: Mandarin | Message 31 of 32 18 October 2011 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Urdu/Hindi (they are the same when spoken and just written in different scripts) there are three levels of addressing some one!
the first is "tu" (sounds same as tu in french, but the oo sound a little longer, falling between to and too) "tu" is 'very' informal, used between very frank friends. It is also used as a derogatory way of addressing someone to express one's looking down upon the one being addressed. Only used for 2nd person singular. the 2nd is "tum", it is informal way of addressing the 2nd person (singular), used between friends and by elders to address a younger siblings/child. As per grammer it is a pronoun used for singular 2nd person but normally its also used for plural, usuall with a quantifier following it, somewhat like saying "you people" or "you two" the 3rd and formal way of addressing is using a plural pronoun. In urdu/hindi it is "aap" and it is used on formal occasions and to show respect. It is also important to note that in the sentence/phrase that follows these words, the verb ending is differernt for each. Infact, just the verb with its particular ending can indicate whether the address was very informal, informal or formal. for example the verb 'to see' used as a command/request "Tu Daikh" v.informal "Tum Daikho" informal "Aap Daikhyay" formal Similarly there is a formal and an informal way of addressing in Pashto (spoken in north-western pakistan and most of Afghanistan). Here also, the verb ending changes and formal vs informal can be expressed by using the verb alone. In Pashto language, pronoun for 2nd person plural is used as formal pronoun. informal you = "te" formal you = "taaso" example using the verb "to see" informal "te ogora" formal "taaso ogorai" Punjabi also uses the verb ending to express formal vs informal addressing of the 2nd person and urban speakers of this language sometime borrow the word "aap" from urdu/hindi in formal conversations. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kazordoon Bilingual Triglot Newbie Spain Joined 4780 days ago 10 posts - 10 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*, English Studies: French | Message 32 of 32 26 October 2011 at 11:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Catalan, we have actually three forms: informal (tú), formal (vostè) and very formal (vos).
"Tú" is the colloquial form, family cercle, and work colleagues. "Vostè" is used to show respect or distance, like when talking to your boss, or unknown people, shop assistants, or when there is big age difference, from young to old. Now, "Vos" is a form that is, unfortunately, disappearing. Is some cities, like Barcelona, you won´t hear it any more. But it used to be quite common some years ago. Mostly used when talking to people with important job positions or from the catholic hierarchy. You won´t hear it neither in the catalan TV, but a few years ago, I remember a famous catalan TV presenter, Miquel Calzada, using the "vos" form when interviewing the archbishop of Barcelona. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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