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Has Japanese been watered down? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| hombre gordo Triglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5584 days ago 184 posts - 247 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Portuguese, Korean | Message 1 of 53 11 February 2010 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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Since there doesnt seem to be an feeling of patriotism in the air of Japan these days, I will take a patriotic stance on their behalf.
Does anyone else get the feeling that the great language of this beautiful land of Japan in recent years has been watered down or is in that process? I personally think that pre-war era Japanese looked so awesome. First of all there is the over the top acceptance of loanwords or western origin. I have debated this problem before so no need to go into it to deeply. It is evident that most are not even necessary because it is a fact that there are already perfectly good words which could be used. I personally believe that Japan is trying to hard to prove that it is a modernised country. By the way, many elderly Japanese people hate these new loanwords. I can empathise with them. Secondly I would like to discuss the use of Kanji. It would seem that nowdays there is a tendency to use less Kanji. Even some words consisting of Joyo kanji are now more frequently being written with Kana. Cant people no longer use this great and beautiful writing system with pride? My Japanese friend mentioned that Kanji education has been watered down and these days many young Japanese people cant even reproduce the Joyo Kanji. Just exactly how by how much has the nations Kanji competence dropped in recent decades? Also this is just my personal opinion, but older versions of Kanji were way more beautiful. For example: 國 ＝ 国 （The older version of this character is easier to write in my opinion as it has a more rounded and fluid form） 櫻 ＝ 桜 By the way, has there been any grammatical reforms since the war? I wrote this post out of concern for that language of my heart which I love so much. I may start praying every night just before bedtime that this great language be restored to its beautiful former self. I can still appreciate your unique beauty, my beloved Japanese language. Edited by meramarina on 20 October 2010 at 7:02pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Tyr Senior Member Sweden Joined 5783 days ago 316 posts - 384 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 2 of 53 11 February 2010 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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The more kana the better IMO. Its a major barrier to language learning- bot for foreigners and Japanese.
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| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5536 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese | Message 3 of 53 11 February 2010 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've noticed that Korean, too, has this pattern of adopting English loan words even when existing Korean words already exist (or could easily be created from existing roots). For example, one of the most common terms for a cellphone combines the English loan words for "hand" and "phone" into 한드폰 (han-deu-pon) (there is another term as well, but it still uses "phone" as a loan word). Would it not have made more sense to simply merge the existing Korean terms for "hand" and "phone" (neither of which are loan words by themselves) into 손전화 (son-jeon-hwa)?
I can understand adopting loan words for technology terms and for foods/plants/animals that aren't native to that area, but with some of the loan words I've seen they already had an existing Korean word for that concept. Edited by Warp3 on 11 February 2010 at 4:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| elvisrules Tetraglot Senior Member BelgiumRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5470 days ago 286 posts - 390 votes Speaks: French, English*, Dutch, Flemish Studies: Lowland Scots, Japanese, German | Message 4 of 53 11 February 2010 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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Is this really something new? Japanese is already full of Chinese, wouldn't a Chinese-free Japanese be more beautiful to you?
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| Sayumi Groupie Japan Joined 5419 days ago 51 posts - 75 votes Speaks: Japanese | Message 5 of 53 11 February 2010 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I couldn't agree more. How often do I cringe when I hear words like キャリア or ハｰドル. First of all, kyaria sounds like "carrier", as in "aircraft carrier". When I first heard that one of my friend was having "kyaria guidance" at school (guidance is also 外来語 or loanword, an euphemism for fake English and, to a certain extent, fake Dutch and Portuguese) it took me a good 15 seconds to understand just what the hell she was talking about.
Not just are all these loanwords hard to tolerate, people also have a tendency to write easy words in kana instead of kanji. Take "皮膚科”, a dermatologist. It's often written 皮フ科! 躊躇う becomes ためらう, 躾ける becomes しつける and so on so forth. This makes reading news articles and textbooks a real hurdle, a ハｰドル, even! Kana is easy to read for Japanese people, but not for foreigners. At least it's not easy for me, and my experience tells me this may also be the case for a significant segment of the student population residing in Japan. P.S.-I know Japanese students at the undergraduate level who are unable to read words like 変遷・灌漑・片鱗, etc. Edited by Sayumi on 11 February 2010 at 5:14pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6769 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 6 of 53 11 February 2010 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's easy to get discouraged, but I see bright signs.
1. Japanese basically only borrows nouns, and seems to have been a promiscuous borrower most of its history. However, the language itself is heavily verb and particle oriented, and that core seems to solidly resist borrowings. And most borrowed nouns either become uniquely Japanese words with meanings distinct from the original, or simply disappear again over time like a fad. 2. I would hazard a guess that knowledge and use of kanji among the general public is actually at a historical high, now that they have a bustling industrial economy where most people can afford schooling and being well-educated is respected (unlike many parts of the West). Bit by bit, the joyo list is getting longer as the government realizes their attempts to trim and streamline the language's use of kanji was both ill-advised and futile. Personal computer use is lower among regular people than in the West thanks to the early adoption of cell phones for simple computing tasks, so most people still keep diaries and day planners on paper and keep their writing skills up as a result. 3. Crack open any book, novel, or even serious manga from a bookstore shelf, and you'll find thousands of non-joyo kanji in all their splendour, and used with a creativity and vigour that is simply not possible in the West's alphabetical languages. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Sayumi Groupie Japan Joined 5419 days ago 51 posts - 75 votes Speaks: Japanese | Message 7 of 53 11 February 2010 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | ||
Indeed, but it has become apparently clear to me that most people can't read those non-joyo, non-jinmei kanji. They can surely venture a guess, but that does not represent actual knowledge of the words in question. Edited by Sayumi on 11 February 2010 at 5:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| IronFist Senior Member United States Joined 6438 days ago 663 posts - 941 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 8 of 53 11 February 2010 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | ||
I would assume the internet helps in this regard, too. If Japanese people are reading the internet and see a kanji they don't know, it takes two seconds to look it up and eventually they'll probably remember what it means. Although I have no idea if there is Japanese internet slang that is actually corrupting the language the way it is in English. I would guess probably the answer is yes, but probably not as bad, since like you said, Japanese people value being educated and it's not considered "cool" to speak a corruption of the language, like whatever the Japanese equivalent of "where is you at?" 1 person has voted this message useful |
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