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| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5237 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 9 of 16 29 April 2015 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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If you are going to listen to things, at the beginning don't worry about comprehension, but rather try and identify word boundaries. This is especially important in French where they seem to sling everything together into one long sentence. You might also want to try
EMK's Spanish experiment. My advice for books contradicts everyone who has posted so far. I say you should download ANKI and get a Big Long Book, none of this first reader kids book rubbish. Anything by Stephen King will do. A long book will let you get used to the authors style, and the words will be more repetitive. Then open the first page of the book and underline any words you don't know. Put this word into ANKI with the rest of the sentence as "close deletion" the translation and start to memorise. You can just do a page a day, but your vocabulary will ratchet up quite rapidly! Even a short SK novel would be about 300 pages, so you'd have a year of work to get through. You aren't reading this book for enjoyment however, so don't expect to like it. You're just mining it for words and having the words in context of a sentence. It would be useful if you've read this book before in English. Your mileage may vary. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| diplomaticus Newbie United States Joined 3966 days ago 23 posts - 31 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 10 of 16 30 April 2015 at 12:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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rdearman,
That link to emk's experiment is quite interesting. I am not sure if it ever made it to the UK, but have you heard of the TV series Law & Order? It had a bunch of spin- offs, but it is basically a generic police & courtroom show. The plot usually hinges on some ridiculous coincidence or something corny, but the general layouts are so repetitive that it seems that a show like that would be well-suited for doing something like this. I wonder what a French equivalent would be. Hmm. I know ANKI is a spaced repetition program, but what does "close deletion" do? I actually hate Stephen King, haha. But maybe something like that strategy would work with L'Etranger? Also, if the counter at Lingvist is to be trusted, then one needs around ~1675 of the most common French vocab words memorized to understand 80% of a given text. Am I off base in thinking that one could guess a lot from context if they knew 4 out of every 5 words encountered? It seems that building vocabulary is always going to be the never- ending aspect part of learning a language. I need to get going on that as well! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5237 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 11 of 16 30 April 2015 at 1:35am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I've had a problem finding French TV shows with subtitles. This is mainly I think because the French don't do sub-titles. However I have used a very good comedy called "Hero Corp" which you can buy the DVD's of on Amazon. Or if you like gritty police drama you should try Engrenage (called Spirals on Netflix). You can buy this on Amazon with English subtitles, but I don't know if it comes with native French sub-titles too. Since you're in the USA and you'll have problems with regional DVD's, I suggest you just look for some movies on DVD with French/English with sub-titles in both. I've found a few of them here in the UK at Charity shops, people just give them away. Or you might try Canadian TV.
Close Deletion is an exercise, test, or assessment consisting of a portion of text with certain words removed, where the participant is asked to replace the missing words. So basically the word you are trying to memorise is blanked out, and you have to fill in the blank. In anki you can even force yourself to type this word in not just remember it. You can use any book really, even the small primers or kids books, but the reason I'm saying a large adult book is you'll get a larger variety of words and more complex grammar and structures in the sentences. I've just recommended Stephen King because he writes large books which aren't overly "literary" in nature. He uses common words and the translators do the same. I would suggest a translation of a book you already know, but you don't have to do that. Read SF, Fantasy, Horror, Romance, whatever you want. Everyone around here seems to read Harry Potter, or Twilight for some reason.
You can guess a lot of stuff in context if you have some knowledge of grammar. For example in English if you saw the sentence. "John threw the ball for his dog Jesse." and you didn't know the verb "to throw", you'd at least be able to figure out that it is some action you take with a dogs ball. You'd most likely get it right because if you know some grammar: "John XXXXX the ball for his dog Jesse." You could see that John is a noun, the ball is the object, and for his dog Jesse is a prepositional phrase. The thing which is missing is the verb, since all sentences have to have a verb, then threw must be a verb. It is the thing John is doing. I would say that the estimate of 80% you've quoted is bollocks. I have just tonight underlined all the French words on a page I don't understand and did the math. I understood 91.32% of the words on the page, and still didn't have a clue what the hell they were talking about. A better estimate would be if you understand 98% of the words on the page you'll understand the page. The words I was looking at weren't exactly common, and I do better with Stephen King novels, even though I don't particularly like horror. Vocabulary is a long drawn out topic, with lots of different opinions on how much or how little is required. But the way I look at it is although I might know enough words to ask the question, do I know enough words to understand the answer? One other thing to remember is that you'll not always be using ANKI or some memorisation system. Just like in English, once you can understand 98% of the words, you can work the rest out from context with no dictionary required. I have another suggestion for you concerning Listening-Reading. Go to https://librivox.org/ where you can download audio books in many languages. Find one where you can get the text in English & French, and the audio in French & English. (I'd suggest Jules Verne). You can then use these books to have a narrator reading the book in English to you, while you read the book in French (instant translations) and then later listen to it in French while reading it in French (Helps pronunciation). You can get a TON of information from HTLAL users in this thread on L-R. Sorry for the Mega-long reply. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| diplomaticus Newbie United States Joined 3966 days ago 23 posts - 31 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 12 of 16 02 May 2015 at 1:01am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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rdearman,
Thanks for the suggestion of L-R. I spent a rather excessive amount of time reading. There seems to be a lot of confusion over what, specifically, the method means. Am I right in thinking a simple explanation of it is: 1. Read the English while listening to the corresponding French audio. 2. Read the French while listening to the corresponding French audio? I always feel like anything that cannot be distilled into a simple explanation, language-related learning or not, is very likely snake oil. You may be right about the Lingvist numbers being off. Your experience is rather depressing, actually. 98% to understand a page? Wow! I guess I have my work cut out for me. I actually have not been visiting Lingvist the past few days. But I get their emails, which I've quite enjoyed. Every few days they send a free download of something. The first was a simple summary of French grammar and numbers and such in a handy 3-page document. Then the one today is simple phrases a tourist might need. The layout is pleasing and the stuff is a solid additional way to read over things. Anki and cloze deletion sound like a great tool. I will definitely keep them in mind when I decide to make the plunge into real books. For now, all my time is occupied with French in Action. All I can say is wow! In high school we had watched a few of these videos as a simple one-off. I had no idea there was so much more to this. For those that don't know, this is what goes into the complete program: 1. The 52 videos. Each one has a ~7 minute clip showing a story of a young man visiting Paris and his time there (this is what I gather from reading the intros and watching the 1st and 2nd video. So far I've only "met" Mirielle). Then, the rest of the run-time is a review of the things you covered. In the 2nd lesson, for example, you see people acting in ways to show they are sick or tired, and you get to see it in a few different ways to help make sure the meaning is clear. 2. Audio cd. This has tons of clips to do the exercises. The directions on how to use this are in the study guide, though the majority of them seem rather self explanatory and you'd figure it out from reading the workbook. 3. The workbook. This with the audio cd seem to be the heart of the course for those not just watching the videos alone. It has tons of exercises. Like it is kind of crazy. I just finished the 18th section of exercises for Lesson 2. Out of 38! To complete all of these will take a couple of hours, easily. And this is the first real lesson! 4. The study guide. This gives directions on what to do, and when. As I said, one could probably figure it out without. But I like the intro it gives and the tad bit of extra on each of the exercises. I actually feel stupid to admit it, but its explanation of what a first, second, and third person pronoun are made something click that never really had before. And it wasn't even the point of the paragraph, haha. 5. The textbook. I am sure this will seem more vital later on. It is just the full text of the first 7 minutes or so of the video. Just the sort of "soap opera" part, and not the follow-up. It is written like a play so you always know whose speaking part it is. There are also sections to give more examples of words being used. Pictures and whatnot. All in all, this seems pretty amazing so far. I am sure part of it is just the excitement of a new course. But this just seems so substantive. Thinking back to my high school French, working through a course like this seems as if it would've been more fun, and thus more memorable, than conjugation tables and whatnot. I am sure there are many ways to use this, but I am following the instructions in the study guide: 1. Read the story summary and culture notes for the lesson (in the study guide). 2. Watch the video. Take no notes. Just watch and pay attention. It says to watch more than once to retain more. I watched the 2nd Lesson the other night before bed, and again the next day after work before doing the exercises. 3. Read over the text work-up after watching the video (in the study guide). 4. Work through the exercises in the workbook (study guide tells you what to do, some things involve the audio cd, and a few so far have used the textbook). That is that. I'll probably watch the video story part again after all the exercises, just to tie it together. For anyone reading this, I should note I have the 3rd edition of the textbook and workbook, with the 2nd edition of the study guide. I got all three in new condition for ~$65, but better deals can probably be had if you poke around more on Amazon. From the FIA site, there is a free download of the Instructor's Guide: Instructor's Guide I tried to use the URL-making tool, so hopefully it worked. I've not looked at the Instructor's Guide, but it doesn't really seem necessary to me. Maybe for someone not wanting to buy the study guide? I do wish the 3rd edition study guide was out already. The textbook and workbook actually make reference to it being free on the website, but I found nothing at the link listed. It may get confusing later for me since there are new audio lessons for free on the FIA website to go with the 3rd edition. Here is the link for that, but I recommend ensuring your headphones aren't on or that your sound is muted before clicking since they have it set so over half the audio clips auto-play. 3rd edition audio Am I wrong to expect better from an Ivy League institution? Anyway, this seems pretty great so far. The videos take this to a whole new level from other things I have used. Not only that, but it has drills, pronunciation practice (though maybe just for the first few lessons?), and there is even a track on the cd that is the entirety of the soap opera portion of the video. Keep in mind the textbook has the complete text of that section written out, replete with pictures. Though I didn't dabble in the others too much, this makes me think this course has something for everyone since the drills are at least vaguely FSI-like, though more focused on the video and not as rigorous, it has some pronunciation for the Pimsleur lovers, and since you have the audio clip and the full dialogues, one could even treat it as a sort of super-long Assimil course. Isn't it Linguaphone that is said to be like Assimil with much longer dialogues? Maybe that is a better comparison. Anyway, this is getting long. I am just excited as this seems to be the total package all rolled into one. I enjoy the setup because, other than setting aside time to watch the video, I can do as many or few exercises in a sitting as I want. I like that flexibility. From what I've read, it gets substantially harder after the first 8 or so lessons. I am looking forward to the challenge and think this may be the course I stick with. It is the total package as far as I can tell. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4910 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 13 of 16 02 May 2015 at 1:44am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Yeah, French is Action is pretty incredible, and you've done a great job summarizing many of the parts.
For LR, there's also reading the French while listening to English. Since you're just getting started again, have you heard of the Six Week Challenge? It's a chance to track your daily progress for a 6 week period, and just push yourself for a while. The challenge runs 6 weeks on and 6 weeks off, so we don't get burnt out. I tend to do too much for the 6 weeks of the challenge, and then do less serious language work on the 6 weeks off, which works pretty well for me. It's sort of a chance to push hard and then slow down a bit while it sinks in. Here's the link to the score page, and at the top of the page is a link to instructions: http://6wc.learnlangs.com/ 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| diplomaticus Newbie United States Joined 3966 days ago 23 posts - 31 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 14 of 16 23 May 2015 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hello, everyone. I didn't want to disappear on you all. Shortly after my last post, I
lost my job quite unexpectedly. I am lucky in that I have the savings to tide me over for a bit, but most of my time is spent job-hunting now. At first I was sticking with my French studies, but I've really found that when I am not actively interviewing or job searching, my mind sort of just wants to shut down and zone out. So, I've decided to set language study aside for now until I am properly situated again. But, for anyone who comes along to read this, I highly recommend French in Action. The way it makes words stick is incredible. Learning things every which way, and in my mind I was already able to make sentences about actions going on around me, just a few lessons in. Also, thank you to the warm community here for helping me figure out what to study. Regardless of if, or when, I get back to language study later, I have the confidence to know I can do it as an adult :) Take care all. I am back to googling for jobs now... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4910 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 15 of 16 23 May 2015 at 10:40pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'm very sorry to hear about your situation, but I agree if you're busy searching for a job language study might just be too much of a distraction. Get life sorted out first, than you can enjoy your new language hobby once again.
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| diplomaticus Newbie United States Joined 3966 days ago 23 posts - 31 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 16 of 16 11 July 2015 at 7:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hi all. I just wanted to share the positive update that I've found a new job. Not only
that, but it is at a higher pay than the old one. Plus, I broke up with my girlfriend, so now have plenty of time to study again, haha. I just need to decide if French is what I wish to return to. Part of me has been sort of liking the idea of studying German as that is my heritage, though I have never studied it in any form. Other languages that interest me don't seem quite worth the effort when truly weighing the time it takes to learn a language (Italian, Dutch....). I suppose the wise thing to do is to get my "wanderlust" of thinking about other languages out of the way up front and then pick one to stick to for the long haul. German just seems so fun. Not as widely spoken as French (at least outside of Europe), but all the places it is official seem so, well.....nice! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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