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 Language Learning Forum : Polyglots | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| zerothinking Senior Member Australia Joined 6374 days ago 528 posts - 772 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 17 of 22 20 November 2010 at 10:36am | IP Logged | ||
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I know I'll get flamed for this but I think someone has to say it. It's not meant to be
mean, it's just meant to be truthful and frank. If a lot of people are telling you aren't as fluent as you think you are in these languages in so far as quality of grammar, accent, and expression are concerned then instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying 'I am fluent, I know I am fluent, I am fluent, I am fluent', you should listen to them and improve on your languages rather than deluding yourself into thinking your fantastic by repeating it to yourself over and over again until it sounds true. The guy who was commenting on your Thai was saying that you get tones wrong and you need to work on them before you are fluent by any definition. He also said you are using words that aren't Thai but just English which means you are lacking vocabulary that would be a prerequisite for any type of even low fluency. You just ignored it and exclaimed you are fluent anyway. "Advanced fluency also implies very few errors, none of which are systematic." You don't have this advanced fluency in Thai, if that's what you are asking. The idea that you can self-judge when you are fluent in a language in spite of what other people say (especially natives) is arrogant to say the least. People spend years becoming truly fluent in one language and for most languages the learning never stops. For you to say you are truly fluent and don't have to learn anymore is almost an insult to those who dedicate themselves to truly learning a language deeply and widely and to a high level of proficiency. Otherwise, your definition of 'when you don't have anymore to learn' must be very low indeed. Your passion for languages is appreciated but you don't have a healthy respect for how deep and complex the languages are that you learn. I advise you to learn how to take advice instead of ignoring it because it doesn't fit with your self-evaluation of your skill. That way you'll truly progress in your languages. Edited by zerothinking on 20 November 2010 at 10:45am 19 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5322 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 18 of 22 20 November 2010 at 11:14am | IP Logged | ||
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I think one of the problems is that Cesare probably hasn't fully understood the concept of phonemes and assumes that other languages have the same "fault tolerance" as English.
For example, if the stereotypical German villain in a Hollywood movie says "Ve heff vays of mekink you tok!" most people will probably be able to figure out that what he meant to say was "We have ways of making you talk!" However, other languages are not as forgiving. For example, if you change the pronunciation of just one letter in Arabic you get a completely different word. E.g. تين /ti:n/ (=fig) and طين /tˤi:n/ (=clay). It's even worse in tonal languages such as Thai with its 5 tones where a subtle change in tone creates a new word. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cesare M. Senior Member Canada youtube.com/user/CheRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5172 days ago 99 posts - 135 votes Speaks: English* | Message 19 of 22 20 November 2010 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | ||
Well listen everybody has a different interpretation of fluency and my definition of fluency is diffferent from the rest. Also I am sorry for forgetting to say this but I have chatted with many natives from LiveMocha or Skype who were Thai so I know and also yes I am working on my tones. I am sorry for forgetting to tell him that. Also do you know how to speak Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Urdu, Arabic, Russian, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, and Hindi? If you don't then do not say that I am not fluent in these languages because you do not know them. I said that "I know I am fluent" because I have a specific definition of fluency and it's different from some others. I have the right to say I am fluent in these languages because I have a slightly different interpretation of it. Also a very large number of natives from LiveMocha have honestly approved me fluent in those 9 languages. This is because they smartly understand my definition of fluency and they smartly blend in with theirs. But yes I am working on my tones, but other than that I am fluent and fluent does not mean perfect. Also he was talking about the video I made in Thai that I was using about a few English words. But I do still have a good vocabulary in Thai and I am not lacking vocabulary. So you think whatever the heck you want. Do you know Stuart Jay Raj, he even loved my Thai and says that I have a good vocabulary and if you think he's being too nice, think again and go look him up. I am not sticking my fingers in my ears. Thanks for your input but please be understanding. Edited by Cesare M. on 20 November 2010 at 2:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| slhdn Diglot Newbie Turkey Joined 5733 days ago 20 posts - 33 votes Speaks: Turkish*, English Studies: French, Arabic (classical) | Message 20 of 22 20 November 2010 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, If the definition of fluency differs from person to person, what is the meaning of "I am fluent in Thai"? It doesn't mean any specific thing, so I would avoid such a declaration.
6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| translator2 Senior Member United States Joined 6921 days ago 848 posts - 1862 votes Speaks: English* | Message 21 of 22 20 November 2010 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ” “But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected. “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.” Edited by translator2 on 20 November 2010 at 5:54pm 11 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Torbyrne Super Polyglot Senior Member Macedonia SpeakingFluently.com Joined 6097 days ago 126 posts - 721 votes Speaks: French, English*, German, Spanish, Dutch, Macedonian, Portuguese, Italian, Swedish, Czech, Catalan, Welsh, Serbo-Croatian Studies: Sign Language, Toki Pona, Albanian, Polish, Bulgarian, TurkishA1, Esperanto, Romanian, Danish, Mandarin, Icelandic, Modern Hebrew, Greek, Latvian, Estonian | Message 22 of 22 20 November 2010 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | ||
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From the outside looking in, there are some issues at play in this discussion. Firstly, it is obvious that Cesare does have a wildly different view of fluency to a number of other language learners. This is easily observable on this forum and from the YouTube activity on his account.
Cesare comes across to me as a nice guy and I think he has a great zest and passion for languages, something which is common amongst the users of this forum and the YouTube language-lover community too. Cesare and I have spoken on Skype and, as he has mentioned, we have spoken in a variety of languages. I have given him the feedback he requested from me on his language levels from what we were able to discuss during our voice chat. I don't feel it appropriate to share my appraisal of his abilities in an open forum such as this. That said, there are some general remarks I can make publicly, given that is what Cesare appears to want himself. There is a tendency to go after proof of anyone claiming fluency in any language claimed. I think most people who have created an account and uploaded videos on YouTube have experienced that - me included! :) Cesare has received more than most for a few reasons: 1. He has actively sought out feedback on his languages 2. He has made quite astonishing claims of fluency 3. He has claimed to learn languages in a very short period of time Cesare says his PDD autism gives him a unique ability. From my observations of Cesare, he has done very well to learn what he has from the materials he says he uses. I have not met anyone before able to put together words and phrases from phrase books as he does and achieve an A2 level in the language. Usually a more formal course is needed. That in itself is a testament to his ability to pick up words and phrases and join them together to hold basic conversations. YouTube and even this forum are not for the faint hearted. People can be quite brutal in their appraisal of another person's abilities. It has put many off making videos and it causes some people to react publicly to the critical comments they receive. In my own experience, I have received comments from people saying I speak Russian wonderfully, which is simply not true. I know that and I would never deny it. I also know that I can converse in the language, so someone saying I don't know it at all is also incorrect. This is where a long slug from the bottle of reality is in order. This may sound simple, but it is not always easy for everyone to recognise what is true and what is false. I think it would have been tougher for me to see the reality at 18 than it is now at 33. Now, the real question is...What does anyone really have to gain from claiming fluency? Why are people bothered about someone claiming fluency? Well...Ziad Fazah quite demonstrably showed that inflating ones linguist ability brings only ridicule when the natural course of things reaches a head, and a journalist picks up on threads and approaches that person to go on live TV. A lesson for all self-proclaimed polyglots. To my mind, it is unfair for receive rude comments for putting oneself out there as Cesare has done. Equally I find it irresponsible if people help to over-inflate such claims. The last thing I would like to see is this young man knocked down either way, that is to say from people setting him up for a fall or from people putting him down too much for being over-zealous. Solid, honest appraisals are in order, though sometimes hard to spot for the person in the middle, as I have already mentioned. What Cesare chooses to do with the information is entirely his choice. This is not a job interview, and were it one he would be tested to see if he speaks each language sufficiently to perform the task. It could be argued that he could trick people to make money by inflating his abilities...and...possibly so...though I feel that the natural conclusion to overly inflated claims is usually as I have described above. My hope is that he will continue to study his languages and that the feedback will help him to grow. 20 persons have voted this message useful |
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