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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4119 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes  Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 1 of 46 24 August 2013 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am starting this log for the purpose of having a place where I can document my ideas on language learning. I am new to this forum and I have already been engaged in some heated discussion on language learning. From this I have noticed that I seem to hold ideas on language learning that are radically different from what a lot of people here hold. I like discussing ideas a lot but sometimes, especially when you are radically different in your approach, it gets tiring to have to argue, explain, repeat, and go over my position over and over. So I decided to start this log, where I can advance pass the arguing stage and just express my thoughts.
I will first state my terms. I welcome everyone that is interested in my thoughts on language learning. This is a place where I do not want to be attacked for my ideas. I will already say it here: I do not care about your ideas if they are the opposite of mine or if you plainly disagree with me, do not state it here please! There are a lot of other places on this forum where we can engage in heated discussions, this is not the place. I will only answer people that are polite and honestly wondering something about what I have to say. I also welcome honest and well-indented suggestions. Now with that out of the way I think it is proper to give a bit of my language learning background. I am a native speaker of Serbo-Croatian and one could also say Swedish since I moved to Sweden as very young and I still live there. I speak English as well. The reason that I got engaged in this whole language learning community and my present language pursuit of French was a thought I had about a year ago. I come to think of it, I had been studying German, to various degrees, for at least six years throughout school but I could not say that I speak German. I could perhaps at best say that I was intermediate. And I was no bad student, in fact I was the top student of my German class in high school. The more I thought about it I thought that it should not have to take six years to learn to speak a language. In addition I remembered how I learned enough Swedish to be able to speak comfortably after just six months of living in Sweden. Of course these six months were pure immersion, but I though six years of German classes should be able to get you to a level where you are able to speak comfortably in the language. Then I thought about what I had learned in my German classes, there was a lot of grammar rules that are still imprinted in my memory such as the classic: aus, außer, bei, mit, nach, seit, von, zu, among other beauties. I also remembered that I learned Swedish without any grammar studies, with no help from my parents, since they could not speak Swedish at the time. Then it struck me that I think I know more German grammar then some Germans do, yet they can speak and I cannot. Something was wrong with the way languages were thought in school, but what? It became a quest for me, for a time, to find out the right way, i.e. the most efficient way, to learning languages. Since I love philosophy and I am an Aristotelean at heart, I asked myself questions like: what is the nature of language learning? What is essential in language learning? Out of all aspects of language learning, which one aspect of language learning, if removed would not make it possible to learn languages. Here I already knew that grammar studies were not essential. As I thought on these issues I began to look around me for other people who had came to the same conclusions about grammar studies when it comes to language learning. This was when I found the language learning community. I also learned about different polyglots. The one that had a big influence on me was Kato Lomb. She held the same viewpoint about grammar as I had come to and she seemed very rational in her thinking which I like. I read her book and I admire her a lot. The quotes that made a great impression on me and stuck with me were the following (I am here quoting from memory): - You don't learn language from grammar, you learn grammar from language - You remember best what you have figured out yourself from context The second quote resonated with me since I remembered my immersion experience with Swedish and since I from studying philosophy hold that all knowledge is contextual. I had in addition experienced learning to program prior to this, and I wasted a couple of months in the beginning when I started to program by focusing my learning on reading books on programming. I noticed after a while that very little stuck in my mind from what I had read once I started to program. I then decided to start build a project in programming and look up things I didn't know along the way. This turned out great and I learned to program really fast. What I had experienced firsthand here was that context is absolutely crucial to learning. That is what made me appreciate what Kato Lomb was advocating. I also liked how Lomb likened the language learning process to the solving of a cross-word puzzle. Wow, why couldn't my teachers in school made language learning this fun. As I had not firmly defined my own approach at this point I decided to experiment with the advice Kato Lomb gave. I chose to experiment on Spanish since the language had an easy link between the written and spoken form. I got a book in Spanish and began trying to solve the cross-word puzzle like a detective. I must say that this was rather fun even though I was a total beginner, I think the frame of mind of looking at it as a cross-word puzzle help a lot here. What I realized was that it takes a lot of time to progress this way and figure out the meaning. So I thought I can get comic books, since they will help me with the context of their pictures to figure out the meaning of what was written. This was even more fun I must say. But then I noticed that this way can sometimes make you learn the wrong meaning of words that you think you have figured out. But also I lacked any progress in spoken Spanish which in fact interested me more. I thought also that even if I have the pictures in comic books a lot of times I did not get the full context. I must however say that this approach enabled me to sit for hours without noticing that the time went by, and I progressed a lot but not as efficiently as I thought I could. I thought more on the issue of learning a language efficiently. I noticed that all learning came from figuring out the meaning of the material that I consumed. I thought that this was rather logical since our knowledge works through links. To make something new stick we have to link it to something that we already know. To make something stick easier and better I realized that having a context is important because it provides a set of links to tie something new to. Of course learning out-of-context like studying single word lists, may stick but it will take much longer and will not stick as long because you are not providing enough links to tie the new to and it gets much harder to use it. Later I learned that the first principle here, in the language learning community, is called comprehensible input. This was the essence to language learning, because no matter how much you tried to learn a new language you would fail if you removed this aspect from your language learning. At the time I read about people wondering why one cannot just pick up a language by watching TV in the target language, this was the reason. This was also the principle that I had adhered to unknowingly when I learned Swedish. In fact it was never my intention to learn Swedish but rather to understand what the other kids said, the focus was always on the meaning. And through immersion I picked up Swedish to a very comfortable level within six months. From this stage I thought that the most efficient approach to language learning must be the one that allows for the fastest flow of comprehensible input. So I experimented with reading a text in Swedish and English which I understood and then in Spanish. This turned out to work great, I learned much faster than if I just read the the Spanish as Kato Lomb, and I noticed that I could read native content that I liked comfortably this way and yet learn. I had learned a way to make my language learning fun and efficient. I was ready to begin my language learning pursuit at this point. I thought about if Spanish was really a language I wanted to learn and I concluded that even though I have friends that speak it I did not have any particular desire to learn it. It had function as a good language to experiment on, but I was going to study another language. Also I did not want to study German, it had be imposed on me in school. I came to think that I really liked French, I liked the sound of it, it sounds very powerful and intellectual to me. There was great content that I could consume, also I had liked some of the French music that has been produced. It could open up great possibilities to me. So I decided to learn French. My goal is nothing less than to reach native-like level in the language. I have also felt some desire to know Chinese but it is not as strong as the desire for French and I know that it is unwise to spread one's focus across many languages (here you can read my thread under the "general discussion" section of this forum: "We, who manage to focus on ONE language"). I think that the efficiency goes down a lot when you choose to study more languages simultaneously. Also I do not think it merely goes down by half if you go from one language to two languages, it goes down even more. This has to do with the fact that the mere immersion of one language has a cumulative effect because of the repetition you get. And I want to learn French as efficiently as possible. Now my primary aim with French is to improve my listening comprehension. As I said, I like how French sounds to me and everything but I know after all that languages are only tools and that my main interest is in the content that they communicate. I like to consume French content and be able to understand and speak French when I travel there. So I am in a sense doing what I did to learn Swedish once. I am learning French to be able to consume the content. Now to reach the level where I can do it naturally I have to immerse myself enough in the language. But I have figured out that I can already begin to consume some native material thanks to Internet and new technology. So what I am doing is in a sense to open up more French content i.e. learning French, by already consuming content in French. The thing now is that I need churches to be able to ensure comprehensible input while consuming content in French. So what I have done now is to get the Stieg Larsson's book "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" in French (both text and audio book) and in Swedish (text version) since I had already planned to read it in Swedish. Later I plan to read Les Miserables by Victor Hugo. What I do is to read one sentence in Swedish and then listen to the same sentence in French and try to figure out/apply the meaning to what I hear. The French text is there because it is hard to distinguish the single words from what the French speaker is saying and because I would want to learn the written form of French as well, although this is not primary to me. This approach is very similar to what I recently read about in this forum, called LR. To make things more convenient for myself I developed an app for the iPad that I use as my sole approach to language learning. I no longer have to sit at the computer studying and manage a hundred of different windows. It presents me with both texts next to each other and it gives me audio controls. It allows me to quickly translate single words in the text if I am unable to figure out the meaning. I can also slow down the audio and set markers in the audio so that I can repeat a sentence as many times as I want. That is how my language learning looks like on a daily basis. I will write much more about my thoughts on language learning and my approach. This should serve as a background to my language learning pursuit and my approach. I will end this post here before it turns into a book, by saying that I hope that you enjoy following my journey. I know I will benefit a great deal from having this place where I can come back to from time to time to elaborate and document my experiences and thought on language learning. Edited by JC_Identity on 24 August 2013 at 9:16pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5530 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 46 25 August 2013 at 5:01am | IP Logged | ||
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I totally understand what you mean about learning from context. Even if I know the definition of a word, I can't use it idiomatically, with the right collocations, unless I've encountered and understood it a lot of times in context.
Your iPad app looks great. Two other products with vaguely related philosophies are lang-8 (which has some limited audio support) and Learning With Texts. For video, I've "rewatched" my favorite movies using subs2srs to make Anki cards with sound on the front and French/English text on the back. (To use these cards successfully, I need to delete 80–90% within the first several reviews.) But what I really want is a smartphone application that syncs with live video on my TV, and allows me to rewind, look up words in the subtitles, and capture Anki cards of interesting dialog. LR is great for narrative text, but TV is a marvelous source of spoken dialog. I especially love the way that a series will run for several seasons using mostly the same characters and general vocabulary, making it easier for intermediate students to get acclimated. I look forward to following your journey, and I wish you the best of luck with your French studies! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4845 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 3 of 46 25 August 2013 at 8:18am | IP Logged | ||
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JC Identity, it is really refreshing to read your background as far as your approach to learning languages is concerned, and I'm glad that you have started a log! I will definitely be following this log with interest.
Good luck, and welcome aboard! Edited by kujichagulia on 25 August 2013 at 1:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5554 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 4 of 46 25 August 2013 at 8:30am | IP Logged | ||
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I applaud you for developing your own iPad app to assist in listening and reading. Although not as advanced a solution, I employ Firefox add-ons to tile and bind texts in parallel, as well as provide hover-over translations, and have set up some keyboard shortcuts to control the audio. I agree that this really helps make more efficient and comfortable use of available time and resources.
Good luck with those French crossword puzzles; I look forward to following your progress! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5260 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 6 of 46 26 August 2013 at 2:51am | IP Logged | ||
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Good to see you've started a log, as I suggested. Even though I was critical of your overeager zeal in your first thread as regards multiple-simultaneous language learners, my method more closely follows your own.
This log is your chance to shine and maybe help some fellow learners. Your first log post provides an interesting background story. It will be interesting to follow your voyage into French. I wish you the best of luck as you learn French. Would you say that learning Swedish at an early age sparked your interest in language learning? Edited by iguanamon on 26 August 2013 at 2:52am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4119 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 7 of 46 31 August 2013 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | ||
Thank you for the kind words and for sharing. I looked into those products a bit and I liked what I saw. It is interesting also that you mention video here, because I have been thinking about how I can apply this approach to video content as well. I feel like I am missing out on a great source of content. I like watching movies and series. My initial reaction is that it might be difficult to apply the approach on video because the translations are not always the best and it might be difficult to find video content spoken in the native language (with subtitles in English and French in this case). However the more I think about it, French in this case is a big language with lots of good video content out there and video in itself would be even better for providing a rich context for what I learn. I primarily want the audio to be in the native language because I am focusing on my listening comprehension. If I could choose I would like to watch movies with spoken French along with the transcription and the translation. Ideally I would like to quickly repeat a section of the video and perhaps be able to adjust the time of the subtitles so that I can get the meaning before I see the particular scene. It would of course be great to be able to quickly look up single words from the subtitle as well. Hmm. Maybe I should make another app. :) Not now at least. At present I am enjoying my reading of "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo". Thanks again! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4119 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 8 of 46 31 August 2013 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | ||
Thank you also for the kind words and for sharing! I have tried a couple of browser add-ons as well but they have all been only for quick mouse-over translations. The thing is however that I tend to stay away a bit from content without audio because my primary focus is listening comprehension at this point since I am still a beginner. I am not that comfortable with French pronunciation yet since it differs so much from the written form. As for the French crossword puzzles, I must say that I tend to switch things thing up a bit from time to time to instead go from L2 to L1 (and not the other way around which I do most of the time). The reason is partly because of the pure joy I get from trying to solve the puzzle completely myself. The other reason is so that I can evaluate my progress and see if I am able to understand without the crutches. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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