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L-R vs. extensive reading for B2-C1 | ||
Tags: Listening-Reading (L-R) | Reading | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| nystagmatic Triglot Groupie Brazil Joined 4310 days ago 47 posts - 58 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, English, French Studies: German | Message 1 of 18 27 February 2014 at 5:11pm | IP Logged |
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Hi all,
I'm reaching C1 level in French and now what I mostly have to do is to gather vocabulary and the odd expression. I'm nearly done with Using French and have been watching tens of films, but I'd like to get started on books. For that, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience at such a late stage with L-R versus extensive reading, maybe with L2 audio? I can more or less figure out how words are written based on how they sound, but I'd still be referring to L2 text in L-R, so it would be considerably more time-consuming. Which do you think would be more efficient? Thanks! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 2 of 18 27 February 2014 at 5:38pm | IP Logged |
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L-R is a system for reaching "natural listening" - that is, getting you to a level where you can understand new texts and audio without the help of texts or previous exposure to the same content. It sounds like you're already at that level - so at most you'd use parallel texts+audiobooks as tools, rather than systematically using L-R. At C1, I find parallel texts+audiobooks worth dipping into occasionally, but prefer extensive reading at a faster pace than audiobooks allow for, and extensive listening without having a text in front of me (when I'm resting, out walking, doing chores, etc).
If you still can only "more or less" figure out how words are written, listening to L2 while reading L2 is likely to be helpful; you may (or may not) want to study French orthography explicitly. Making words and phrases more comprehensible is useful: extensive reading (and/or listening) is necessary; parallel texts or pop-up dictionaries can be helpful; using traditional dictionaries is slow enough that it will cost you too much time where you could be getting input in the language, in my opinion, though some people disagree. In practice, you'll probably want to experiment with whatever combination of audio, parallel texts, and extensive reading and/or listening are available to you, and see what's pleasant and what seems effective. Check out Litterature audio; it has over 3000 free audiobooks in French, with links to the texts - so reading in L2 won't take any more time than just listening to L2 would, as you could do them at the same time, without having to spend ages hunting for materials. The quality varies; I recommend Pomme as a prolific and competent reader. Good luck. Edited by Volte on 27 February 2014 at 5:41pm 9 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 3 of 18 27 February 2014 at 5:42pm | IP Logged |
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TBH, no offence meant, but as you list yourself as intermediate and if you think classic LR would still be useful for you, you're probably not all that close to C1 yet. It seems like you know all the B2 grammar and basically everything B2 textbooks can teach you. This is great but it doesn't mean you're B2 in reading or especially listening. And one of the main strengths of LR is learning the grammar without boredom, so if you just need the vocabulary, it's far less useful.
Anyway, at such a stage you should be capable of "natural listening" already. Listening to audiobooks without using the text is certainly a great idea. The difficulty of the materials also matters, of course. If you want to LR a difficult novel with a lot of unfamiliar vocabulary, go for it! Otherwise the very best (fastest) option for actually gaining vocabulary fast is semi-extensive reading with a pop-up dictionary, preferably followed by SRS use. (read here about the various reading strategies) The next best options are extensive reading or listening (separately). Only reading is faster, only listening is good your listening skills. Doing both together at your level is staying in your comfort zone. Note that pure input isn't your only option. There are also thematic books for vocabulary, for example. (I only use the "_______ for doctors" kind of them, and I'm not even a doctor :P) I'm not learning French and hopefully someone like emk or Cavesa can help you with specific resources, but in Portuguese, that's what has helped me at the level you describe or slightly higher: -the game Criminal Case -lyricstraining.com - see if this can help you learn to figure out the spelling based on what you hear -GLOSS - tons of free lessons, click "source" on top to read the full text of the lesson and listen to the audio (available also for reading lessons). I've even done some French lessons despite hating French :P Edited by Serpent on 27 February 2014 at 5:51pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 4 of 18 27 February 2014 at 6:08pm | IP Logged |
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For someone at a solid B2, texts with audio tend to be tedious overkill (at least, for me they certainly are) - but for a language where you have a more tenuous sort-of-B2 from a bit of work and a lot of similarity with a language you already speak, plus a somewhat complex set of spelling conventions, it can be useful. I think the most reasonable thing to do is experiment: if the original poster is bored after 10 minutes of reading along to an audiobook, s/he should move on, if s/he's enthralled and feels like s/he's learning a lot, s/he should continue.
Serpent: You and I have tried L-R, and have an idea of when it's useful and when it's not. That's not so obvious when you just read about it, especially for your first couple of foreign languages, I think. As for B2 vs C1 ability in passive skills and textbook level vs actual level, you make valid points - but it's also a particularly blurry distinction that can change rapidly with a native speaker of a Romance language learning a second one. I'd strongly agree with what you said about that for languages that aren't so similar, though. A few hours of classic L-R can be a nice way to break into literature in the Nth language in a related group, even if you've done an Assimil course and can follow audiobooks by themselves already, I find: it just makes tons of details, like literary tenses and various stylistic conventions, even less of an issue. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 5 of 18 27 February 2014 at 8:20pm | IP Logged |
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Oh yes, I'm very familiar with the blurry vagueness of related languages <3 Maybe it's just that I lack experience with learning them formally from the beginning, as I tend to start with football and LR.
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| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4766 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 6 of 18 13 May 2014 at 6:11pm | IP Logged |
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I daydream about using L-R to get some passive skills in Portuguese some day. I could use a parallel text of Portuguese/Spanish, and I should be able to get myself thoroughly confused.
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 7 of 18 13 May 2014 at 7:19pm | IP Logged |
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Hmmm. I find that a different base is better for keeping the languages apart, rather than treating one as a weird dialect of the other. And more importantly, it just isn't necessary. When I started learning Spanish, I watched a lot of football, did a little LR with a Russian base and started using GLOSS and lyricstraining. Out of these, LR was the least important step. I already had the greater picture; for details, GLOSS is much better. Or just good old reading, perhaps with a popup dictionary.
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| sfuqua Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4766 days ago 581 posts - 977 votes Speaks: English*, Hawaiian, Tagalog Studies: Spanish | Message 8 of 18 13 May 2014 at 7:39pm | IP Logged |
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That makes sense; TV from Brazil and simple novels in Portuguese are semi comprehensible to begin with.
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