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LINGQ: Explicit grammar instruction | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7098 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes  1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 33 of 69 14 August 2007 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I see what you are talking about now! Edit: That is reading between the lines between this and a few other topics. Edited by Farley on 14 August 2007 at 4:44pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| victor Tetraglot Moderator United States Joined 7324 days ago 1098 posts - 1056 votes 6 sounds Speaks: Cantonese*, English, FrenchC1, Mandarin Studies: Spanish Personal Language Map | Message 34 of 69 14 August 2007 at 7:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Zhuangzi, if I understand correctly, you are advocating a system where you simply listen to a language and get a "feel" for it with probably a vocab list and minimal grammar. While that is a great way to get started, I don't think it would work for me in the long term. Without any sort of explanation, I cannot construct whole phrases and reuse vocabulary without any predictable way of knowing whether it is right.
There are many merits to a grammar-based approach to language learning, and as you have said, simply a matter of preference. While you may prefer to have as little grammar as possible, explicit grammar instruction is simply reality in language classrooms around the world and has undeniably worked for many people. I believe that a good balance of interaction with native speakers and material in the language and appropriate grammar knowledge enables a learner to learn a language much faster than if he were to give up on one aspect. One example I would like to mention is the use of "l'on" in French, where "l" has no grammatical purpose. It bugged me for almost a year, before stumbling upon a web page on the Internet mentioning it. For a long time it served as a direct object; still it made little sense. Had somebody explicitly told me that it's only for euphony, I might not have to waste so much time guessing what it is. And it were to be repeated for a hundred more grammatical features, I would be very much discouraged to learn the language. [Edit after reading your post on the best language learning system] Another problem I see with this no-grammar approach is that it's not working to solve the French-learning situation in Canada. You claim that students are dissatisfied with grammar-based approach to learning French and that the method is not working. I have noticed that recently publishers have been trying to minimize the importance of grammar in their textbooks (which was completely eliminated in English for about 30 years). The results aren't satisfying either. I have had to rewrite grammar lessons for friends because basic rules weren't stated in textbooks. The people living in the perfect world at the publishing houses have so much fun making students "discover" rules [just like how students have to "discover" a²+b²=c² in math class] that students find it ever more frustrating to learn. French immersion has taken an almost no-grammar, interactive approach as well, and the result is students studying French for over 10 years making basic grammar mistakes and having errors spreading to other students as they imitate each other. While little grammar works for some learners like you, I am not convinced at all that it would help the majority of language learners. Edited by victor on 14 August 2007 at 7:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Farley Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 7098 days ago 681 posts - 739 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, GermanB1, French Studies: Spanish | Message 35 of 69 14 August 2007 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Zhuangzi,
I went back and reread some of your other posts about grammar, mainly this one, and I think I've got a better picture of your meaning. Languages are composed of lexical chunks and grammar is the theory behind the patterns. You learn best when you learn the lexical items out of curiosity. If you focus on interesting content you will naturally uncover the basics of the language. If you focus on learning words in the thousands you will gain a good command of the base. Agreed. Still, I'm not convinced that the exclusion of grammar is the best solution for most people. A good textbooks will present the core of the language in sample sentences. I don't see how missing a good presentation of basic sentence patterns makes things easier. After all the basics are just common words and boiler plate phrases. Why not study the basics and then let continuous reading and listening hammer in? John Edited by Farley on 14 August 2007 at 9:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6556 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 36 of 69 14 August 2007 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Not a musician or a tennis player I see.
Zhuangzi, please readthis article. Quotes of interest:
Different people have different learning styles. Not because they just haven't tried the best (your) way, but because they learn differently. What's more efficient for you may not be more efficient for me. You may be right about it being a matter of choice for some. But many, if not most, members of this forum are aware of what works best for them, and I think it's unfair to beat them up for learning grammar. Here are two other methods which are "the best". What a cooincidence! The 10,000 sentence method Bet you saw this coming:) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| audiolang Diglot Senior Member Romania Joined 6326 days ago 108 posts - 109 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Romanian*, English | Message 37 of 69 15 August 2007 at 12:20am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Here is another link to show you how different people learn languages: seven successful heroes
Carla for example didn't know any grammar and was very frustrated about it. Unfortunately ,we all saw that coming :)) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| audiolang Diglot Senior Member Romania Joined 6326 days ago 108 posts - 109 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Romanian*, English | Message 38 of 69 15 August 2007 at 12:59am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I confess that all of my English comes from TV viewing,but now I don't think I could just sit in front of the TV set and learn a language with nothing else around.
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| MeshGearFox Senior Member United States Joined 6701 days ago 316 posts - 344 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian | Message 39 of 69 15 August 2007 at 1:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I'm assuming that it's like with Spanish in the states: The majority of language learners are forced into language learning, and don't actually want to learn; and as such, no method will work for them.
To this extent, a lot of mathbooks *don't* clearly state rules. This has always been my problem with math. Instead of saying "In situation X, you do Y," they'll say, "In situation Z, you do Y. What do you do in situation X?" I don't know. I'm not the textbook. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| maxb Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 7189 days ago 536 posts - 589 votes 7 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 40 of 69 15 August 2007 at 1:52am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I am another proponent of grammar less instruction. Since I have sat through 6 years of German in school and cannot construct a sentence without thinking of grammar rules.
Although I have no problem understanding and learning grammar rules I don't feel that they help me much and I also find learning them quite boring. I think reliance on grammar boils down to the fact that some adult learners cannot accept that if you feed your brain with a lot of language input eventually you will be able to speak the language. The brain will actually sort out the patterns for itself if you give it time. This happens naturally for children because when they start learning they don't understand grammar rules. It can still happen for adults though. The thing is that many people feel that they have to know the exact meaning of every word in a sentence before they can learn it. For myself I am satisfied if I understand the meaning of a pattern. I have no need to understand every word in a sentence. For instance I still don't understand how the chinese expression 怎么回事 is constructed. I am not sure about the meaning of 回 in this expression, however I am still able to use it in conversation without problem, since I know under what circumstances it is used. I think this is the key to mastering the patterns of a language. When you encounter a new expression, at first use a translation to figure out its (approximate) meaning, then as you encounter the expression again and again you will eventually understand under what circumstances it is used. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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