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’wh’ sound in American English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Rout Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5712 days ago 326 posts - 417 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish Studies: Hindi | Message 81 of 110 31 May 2009 at 11:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This is what English will probably sound like in the future [Pakleds speaking forward to 7:30].
[Forward to 3:51] this is the way I look at people when they say 'wat.' This sums up my opinion of those who refuse to acknowledge it as a distinct phoneme [forward to :30]. [Forward second video to 7:49] it is even a distinct phoneme in the 24th century! They even design androids to say it distinctly [forward to 5:09]. Riker says it the most distinctly. I guess he's just a snobby old person. Edited by Rout on 31 May 2009 at 11:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jar-ptitsa Triglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5898 days ago 980 posts - 1006 votes Speaks: French*, Dutch, German | Message 82 of 110 01 June 2009 at 2:12am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Yes, they are like guidelines, but with exceptions (not all the rules are always correct)
I trying to say: when you learned some foreign languages, if you discovered that it’s not possible learn them only from (with, use ?) the rules? The rules of a language don’t teach you it.
Yes, exactly, it’s what I mean. (Of course, I don’t’ find it a poor argument)
You wrote : “Maybe that's what's furthering our education dilemma”. I didn’t know to whom you refer “our” therefore I replied “your”. I hadn’t heard of this education dilemma therefore I didn’t know.
Thanks :-)
Because I understand very well this concept: in French it’s a parallel situation. In France the people in Paris think that their versions of all the things are the only correct one, including language. If a Walloon is in France, he /she better adapt himself or the French will mock and think that he /she’s stupid because of some things which are differences for example some expressions. I find this wrong: we’ve a different (only little bit) version of French, but they don’t accept this. Personally, I like very much the language diversity and I love dialects’ continua. It’s important know the standard language, but this is for write essays, or other things like this, it’s not a better language. Also, your point about it was in the history like this therefore it has to remain: this is not my opinion, and this isn’t limited at English. yes, I don’t yet speak English fluently, but I can read it and understand all (mostly) and this things which you promote the usage have parallels in the other languages and also I like to think about the connections English-Dutch-German, and the history of English you can see in Dutch, for example many of vocabulary and pronunciation as well, because the English’s spelling didn’t change.
No, you’re wrong. sometimes, in some dialects it’s a distinct phoneme, but in others not: the people wrote it in this thread and I’ve read some websites now as well. You would like it’s a distinct one, and for you it is, but not for all the people. English-speakers I mean, I find “h” very difficult, and I don’t refer me and it’s not my preference because I think that I don’t hear the difference, but it’s the concept which is interesting and therefore I comment. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rout Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5712 days ago 326 posts - 417 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish Studies: Hindi | Message 83 of 110 01 June 2009 at 6:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Okay, Jar-ptitsa. I apologize then for having such strong convictions and not riding the fence like everyone else here. I never said nor thought that one could learn a language from a rulebook.
Education dilemma: people are getting dumber and dumber because they are less well-served by the public education system. Education is getting watered down because of two or three kids in the class that can't comprehend it. When I say 'we,' I mostly refer to the United States public education system. What happened to books and programs of substance? Well, I have to search for those because to be the most popular and widespread something has to have the ability to to be received by the most people, however dumb they may be. Unfortunately, idiocy is a most contagious disease. I think it should be taught in schools that 'wh' is a distinct phoneme. It's an oddity that makes the English language novel and different. The foreigner may not hear the slightness of it, the simpleton may be ignorant of it, the enlightened may say it so swiftly that it's indistinguishable, but it is there and everyone should know it. Sure, it may sound like I'm asking 'wair?' sometimes, but if you ask me to slow it down I will show you that 'where?' is anything but a homophone. I recall someone here laughing during class when I teacher pronounced his words correctly. Soon children will laugh at the answer of 4 to the summing of 2+2. P.S. I know you don't claim to be fluent in English and that you're a student of the language and I respect that, but you should know that the most accepted way to pronounce it is as it is spelled. An ironic twist that the correct way, in this case, appeals to both sides and the widest number of people where as the other does not. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jar-ptitsa Triglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5898 days ago 980 posts - 1006 votes Speaks: French*, Dutch, German | Message 84 of 110 01 June 2009 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Rout
I don't understand all your post, but I don't like when you refer people "dumb" "simpleton" and "idiocy is a most contagious disease". I think that you are snob and anyway you're wrong also. you've an obsession and delusion with the "wh" because you think it and believe it but all the other people don't, and therefore they prefer to not hear it as well. Probably you're very old because many of old people find that the young people are bad educated, the education's bad and not like when they were young but they are wrong because, for example, we can use computers and we learn different things.But, you're extra snob. I agree with Marc frisch:
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| rapp Senior Member United States Joined 5731 days ago 129 posts - 204 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, Spanish | Message 85 of 110 01 June 2009 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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<<As I have stated, older English forms were spelled infinitely more phonetically than modern English and I have yet to see a variation of that the English word 'what.'>>
<<Why not make the distinction between "knight" and "night"? - Well, this is a strict rule. The 'wh' phoneme should have a strict rule - this is my argument.>> <<I prefer the aspirated version because, as I've said, it was correct for hundreds of years and I refuse to clip and mangle the English language.>> Given these quotes, Rout, I don't see how you can champion the 'hwat' pronunciation of 'what', but not a phonetic pronunciation of 'knight'. Apparently you do mangle the language when it suits your preferences. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Rout Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5712 days ago 326 posts - 417 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish Studies: Hindi | Message 86 of 110 01 June 2009 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Well, rapp, I thought you would have come up with a good argument on your own by now. As I've said, this is a product of spelling reforms and a consensus on the spelling. Many words retain the spelling of the language from which they're borrowed. It's sometimes a matter a pride. I'm sure if you peruse your precious wiki you'll find something on the subject. This is not about spelling, writing, typing, or any other issue not related to the matter at hand. I would say the same thing to someone who is illiterate. I use the spelling as a means to convey what the word would sound like. It's spelled phonetically. Why should it be said phonetically? Because it is what it is! You keep arguing that evolution of the phoneme and of the language justifies your form of speaking it. My argument is that it's not a beneficial change. Why would you want to un-evolve?
Jar-ptitsa, let me start off by saying that I'm probably younger than you and I'm on a computer right now. If you took the time to understand my post, then you would see I'm not calling anyone dumb that isn't so. People choose and are proud to be dumb. It's a sad fact. I'm not a politician and there is no reason for me to try to please everyone. If I've offended anyone that is stupid then I'm sorry, but it's your own fault! I am not snobby, I just believe in what I write. The only thing anyone else believes in is trying to prove me wrong, which is foolish because there is no good counter argument on this subject. Many, I repeat, many people say it the correct way. If you were to recite Shakespeare, would you not say it correctly? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| rapp Senior Member United States Joined 5731 days ago 129 posts - 204 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, Spanish | Message 87 of 110 01 June 2009 at 9:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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<<Noah Webster wanted the term 'through' to be spelled 'thru' did you know that? Do you agree with that?>>
<<English has one of the largest, variegated, and colorful vocabularies of any language.>> Didn't he change the spelling of 'colour', also? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| rapp Senior Member United States Joined 5731 days ago 129 posts - 204 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Esperanto, Spanish | Message 88 of 110 01 June 2009 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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<<Why would you want to un-evolve?>>
Your question is meaningless, since there is no such thing as some absolute 'higher' or 'lower' states of evolution. There is only fitness for a particular environment. To apply evolution as an analogy to language usage, you'd have to analyse how a language is used in a particular environment, and then claim that 'hwat' functioned more effectively than 'wut'. I bet you'd end up looking stupid if you tried, but go ahead if you want. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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