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’wh’ sound in American English

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rapp
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5731 days ago
129 posts - 204 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Esperanto, Spanish

 
 Message 97 of 110
02 June 2009 at 6:08am | IP Logged 
Let's try this again, sprout. You've avoided this question on several occasions.

You yourself said that we have established a "mostly uniform" standard of speech, "except in a phonetic sense". That must mean that there is acceptable variation in the pronunciation of at least some words. Why do you believe that 'wut' is not such a variation?
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anthox
Diglot
Newbie
United States
Joined 6000 days ago
13 posts - 13 votes
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Portuguese, Polish, Russian

 
 Message 98 of 110
02 June 2009 at 8:54am | IP Logged 
Rout wrote:


Your burlesquing of a lofty argument sets at naught beseechment of a dignified answer. [...] If explanation of the semantics is exigent to your comprehension of the argument and reiteration of my arguments in detail has garnered no further comprehension, then I am almost ready to confess that the tiresome task of trying to impart you knowledge is daunting and fraught with certain failure. I have pity on your teachers. I am almost convinced that this has been your ploy all along; to put me in bad humor so that I may cease to continue in the face of being on the horns of a dilemma. Reasoning with you is idem qoud to conversing with an ape about politics. I have given you good reason to say it my way, now give me a reason not to.

Jar-ptitsa, this is not so much an argument about measuring one's intelligence as it is about regarding one's comprehension of facts, rules, and phenomena of significs. Normally, conviviality and appreciativeness would be expected tout de suite of my endeavor to persevere with such an irksome task but instead I am greeted by antagonists who want to argue for argument's sake.


This is the most pretentiously-written douchebaggery I've ever read. Do you think writing like this is eloquent? Sorry, but it makes you sound like a self-absorbed fool striving to appear educated. And your snobbish demeaning of people who don't agree that THERE IS ONE AND ONLY ONE correct pronunciation of 'wh' and who pronounce it unaspirated is obnoxious and ridiculous. As far as I can tell NO ONE is arguing that 'wh' is NOT correct, just that it is not the ONLY correct way. The proof of this lies in the numerous dialects, spoken by both educated and uneducated people, in which it is not pronounced in this way. It is that simple. Rapp directs an entirely valid question at you that you refuse to answer. Instead, you resort to circumlocution and insults.

And perhaps you have forgotten that Jar-ptitsa is not a native English speaker, but you seem more concerned with impressing and confusing him/her with the above drivel than making yourself understood.

Rout wrote:


Why should we cover our language with such a disgraceful thatch erring resonance.


Why indeed, Rout, why indeed.

Seriously, an intelligent person should strive for clarity of expression and modesty of demeanour. Your proclivity for needless and self-congratulatory obfuscation is certainly more of an affront to the English language and to general intelligence than the aspiration or non-aspiration of a particular syllable. In any case, I'm glad a windbag like you aspirates it-- maybe eventually that'll help you deflate back to a more humble plane of being.*



*knowing your rampant homophonophobia, I should clarify that I mean 'plane' in the sense of level or surface, and NOT in the sense of 'airplane,' 'bricklayer's smoothing tool,' the eponymous variety of tree, or as a verb describing a bird gliding through the air. You're welcome.

Edited by anthox on 02 June 2009 at 8:57am
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Rout
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5712 days ago
326 posts - 417 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Spanish
Studies: Hindi

 
 Message 99 of 110
02 June 2009 at 9:30am | IP Logged 
anthox wrote:
Rout wrote:


Your burlesquing of a lofty argument sets at naught beseechment of a dignified answer. [...] If explanation of the semantics is exigent to your comprehension of the argument and reiteration of my arguments in detail has garnered no further comprehension, then I am almost ready to confess that the tiresome task of trying to impart you knowledge is daunting and fraught with certain failure. I have pity on your teachers. I am almost convinced that this has been your ploy all along; to put me in bad humor so that I may cease to continue in the face of being on the horns of a dilemma. Reasoning with you is idem qoud to conversing with an ape about politics. I have given you good reason to say it my way, now give me a reason not to.

Jar-ptitsa, this is not so much an argument about measuring one's intelligence as it is about regarding one's comprehension of facts, rules, and phenomena of significs. Normally, conviviality and appreciativeness would be expected tout de suite of my endeavor to persevere with such an irksome task but instead I am greeted by antagonists who want to argue for argument's sake.


This is the most pretentiously-written douchebaggery I've ever read. Do you think writing like this is eloquent? Sorry, but it makes you sound like a self-absorbed fool striving to appear educated. And your snobbish demeaning of people who don't agree that THERE IS ONE AND ONLY ONE correct pronunciation of 'wh' and who pronounce it unaspirated is obnoxious and ridiculous. As far as I can tell NO ONE is arguing that 'wh' is NOT correct, just that it is not the ONLY correct way. The proof of this lies in the numerous dialects, spoken by both educated and uneducated people, in which it is not pronounced in this way. It is that simple. Rapp directs an entirely valid question at you that you refuse to answer. Instead, you resort to circumlocution and insults.

And perhaps you have forgotten that Jar-ptitsa is not a native English speaker, but you seem more concerned with impressing and confusing him/her with the above drivel than making yourself understood.

Rout wrote:


Why should we cover our language with such a disgraceful thatch erring resonance.


Why indeed, Rout, why indeed.

Seriously, an intelligent person should strive for clarity of expression and modesty of demeanour. Your proclivity for needless and self-congratulatory obfuscation is certainly more of an affront to the English language and to general intelligence than the aspiration or non-aspiration of a particular syllable. In any case, I'm glad a windbag like you aspirates it-- maybe eventually that'll help you deflate back to a more humble plane of being.*



*knowing your rampant homophonophobia, I should clarify that I mean 'plane' in the sense of level or surface, and NOT in the sense of 'airplane,' 'bricklayer's smoothing tool,' the eponymous variety of tree, or as a verb describing a bird gliding through the air. You're welcome.


Thanks for the garrulous response. Again, this isn't about anything but a phoneme so if my responses are tersely confined to one post I don't see what their style has to do with anything. I know what a plane is. =)

Here.

Edited by Rout on 02 June 2009 at 9:39am
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Rout
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5712 days ago
326 posts - 417 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Spanish
Studies: Hindi

 
 Message 100 of 110
02 June 2009 at 9:32am | IP Logged 
rapp wrote:
Let's try this again, sprout. You've avoided this question on several occasions.

You yourself said that we have established a "mostly uniform" standard of speech, "except in a phonetic sense". That must mean that there is acceptable variation in the pronunciation of at least some words. Why do you believe that 'wut' is not such a variation?


Nope, there's no acceptable variation for the 'kn' phoneme which you yourself have established. There isn't one for this either. You're making this boring.
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Jar-ptitsa
Triglot
Senior Member
Belgium
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980 posts - 1006 votes 
Speaks: French*, Dutch, German

 
 Message 101 of 110
02 June 2009 at 2:19pm | IP Logged 
anthox wrote:
   In any case, I'm glad a windbag like you aspirates it-- maybe eventually that'll help you deflate back to a more humble plane of being.*



*knowing your rampant homophonophobia, I should clarify that I mean 'plane' in the sense of level or surface, and NOT in the sense of 'airplane,' 'bricklayer's smoothing tool,' the eponymous variety of tree, or as a verb describing a bird gliding through the air. You're welcome.




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Jar-ptitsa
Triglot
Senior Member
Belgium
Joined 5898 days ago
980 posts - 1006 votes 
Speaks: French*, Dutch, German

 
 Message 102 of 110
02 June 2009 at 2:28pm | IP Logged 
rout wrote:
Jar-ptitsa, this is not so much an argument about measuring one's intelligence as it is about regarding one's comprehension of facts, rules, and phenomena of significs. Normally, conviviality and appreciativeness would be expected tout de suite of my endeavor to persevere with such an irksome task but instead I am greeted by antagonists who want to argue for argument's sake.



But you wrote all the time that it's about good education, having this special sophisticated knowledge, not dumb or education dilemma etc. You become always more snob. How old are you?

My comprehension of facts and rules is very well: the "wh" is mostly unaspirated, but in some dialects it's aspirated. therefore both are correct. Rout, your preference is ok, but for *you* not for all the English-speakers or all the world. You better shut up about this aspirated "wh" now.

Phenomena of significs, what's it? Phenomena of aspiration-snobness = Rout.
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rapp
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5731 days ago
129 posts - 204 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Esperanto, Spanish

 
 Message 103 of 110
02 June 2009 at 2:33pm | IP Logged 
Rout wrote:
rapp wrote:
Let's try this again, sprout. You've avoided this question on several occasions.

You yourself said that we have established a "mostly uniform" standard of speech, "except in a phonetic sense". That must mean that there is acceptable variation in the pronunciation of at least some words. Why do you believe that 'wut' is not such a variation?


Nope, there's no acceptable variation for the 'kn' phoneme which you yourself have established. There isn't one for this either. You're making this boring.


And still you don't answer the question.

Why is the change from pronounced to unpronounced 'k' in 'kn' correct, but the opposite change for the 'h' in 'wh' not?

Its a simple question. Man up and answer it.
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cordelia0507
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5838 days ago
1473 posts - 2176 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*
Studies: German, Russian

 
 Message 104 of 110
02 June 2009 at 4:29pm | IP Logged 
Just a footnote --- Browsing through this thread reminds me why I really have some reservations about English as a lingua Franca. Of all the language in the world!!!

It's just so inconsistent, there's very little logic or relation between spelling and pronounciation. I am fortunate to have learnt it from a young age, but I *REALLY* pity adult learners from Asia, for example.

Some of the spelling examples from Jar-Ptitsa and others gave me goose-bumps. It's such a mess!!! Even French is better in my opinion (I can't believe I said that... :-)

Edited by cordelia0507 on 02 June 2009 at 4:30pm


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