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xandreax
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5695 days ago
142 posts - 160 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 17 of 32
25 October 2008 at 8:34pm | IP Logged 
Chapter 28 - Schaum's Outline of Spanish Vocabulary

"El comercio"

50 minutes

1)la contabilidad- accounting
2)el contable- accountant
3)los bienes- goods
4)los activos- assets
5)el detallista- retailer
6)la acción- stock
7)el estado financiero- financial statement
8)fijar- to fix/set
9)las ganancias/rentas/el beneficio- profit
10)el ingreso (gravable)- (taxable) income
11)la mayorista- wholesaler
12)los pasivos- liabilities
13)la publicidad- advertising
14)el socio- partner
15)la toma de deciciones- decision-making

1 hour for tomorrow
Quedan 2 capitulos, y tal vez los terminé mañana.

Despues, empezaré "Practice Makes Perfect: The Subjunctive" o tal vez yo deberia terminar "[Complete Idiot's Guide to] Intermediate Spanish", porque ya he terminado la mitad del libro. (Ese libro es útil y interesante, a pesar del título, lol.) Hay párrafos que se necesita leer y entender para hacer las pruebas. Eso puede ayudar a desarollar más tu vocabulario. Hay recomendaciones para aprender más el lenguaje... sitios web, etc. Ya no puedo pensar en más cosas que hay ahora... oh well, me gusta. También tengo "Learning Spanish Like Crazy" y no sé cuanto eso puede ayudarme en este momento, pero oigo cosas buenas acerca de ese programa.
También pienso en hacer "Platiquemos".

Pues, no voy a escribir en mi "diario".. escribí suficiente hoy.


1 person has voted this message useful



xandreax
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5695 days ago
142 posts - 160 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 18 of 32
26 October 2008 at 11:49pm | IP Logged 
Chapter 29 - Schaum's Outline of Spanish Vocabulary

"La computadora"

50 minutes

1)almacenar- to store
2)el archivo- file
3)el código de barra- bar code
4)la contraseña- password
5)la informática- computer science
6)reiniciar- to start up again
7)salir de un programa- exit a program
8)la tecla de un teclado- key of a keyboard
Tecla de:
borrar-delete key
retorno- return
retroceso- back space
insertar- insert
búsqueda- search
9)temporal- temporary
10)visualizar- to view

Well I didn't quite get to 4 hours for the week but oh well.

1 person has voted this message useful



SlickAs
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5672 days ago
185 posts - 287 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish
Studies: Thai, Vietnamese

 
 Message 19 of 32
27 October 2008 at 8:32am | IP Logged 
I write in English because I only have 10 minutes.

I learned Spanish with a couple of weeks of intensive Spanish school in Guanajuaro, Mexico and followed it with travel. I spent another useles week in a bad school in Honduras, and then at an English school in Colombia where the teacher had never taught Spanish. That is where I learned the subjunctive.

I then went into business with an Argentinian that I became friends with in part because I spoke Spanish (whom I met in university in Australia), and ended up moving to Argentina for 6 months where I got myself a girl-friend (who did not speak English) and was completely immersed in Spanish.

Now, on learning Spanish, it was always my goal to speak perfectly and colloquailly, and I achieved that. I still find it hard to write, but can work a room in a Spanish speaking party or gathering.

Now the reason, in my opinion that you are having trouble understanding spoken Spanish is that you believe that you can learn the language from books. You cant.

Take something simple: asking how much something is in a shop. A book will perhaps tell you that you need to say (forgive the lack of inverted question marks ... my keyboard is French) "Cuánto cuesta?". Perhaps that numbers need to agree as in "Cuánto cuestan?" for more than 1.

But the reality is that locals will more more than likely say "Cuánto es?" or "Cuánto son?" or "Cuánto vale?" (vale has a whole world of meanings), and more often than not will say "Cuánto cobran?" for a company or more likely "Cuánto cobras?". Now, cobrar is a verb that is used all the time in spoken speech. Like when a waitress is hanging around you might say "Querés cobrar?". It means "Would you like us to pay now?" or something similar without being awkward, and you use it all the time. TO a point where when re-entering the English world, you hate that there is no word for "cobrar" in English.

There are literally thousands of these ... many of them universal, many of them local to a country. You should hear me speak Spanish (in a way that is never written) ... the purists here would find it uneducated and offensive. I speak like "Che. Loca, voluda. Que querès? ..."

There is a lot of syntax in all languages. In English we might ask a slow-moving pizza seller to "step on it". Someone who has learned English from books might think that means that he should put it on the ground and trample upon it. Similarly in Spanish there are all sorts of these: one that springs to mind where I did not understand was someone who said "buscar tres pies al gato". It is these that make you not understand the spoken language.

Now, take something more simple. Caso. Every dictionary in the world will tell you
Caso n masc. case.
And you can ... in that case might be translated to "En aquel caso". But that is not really the whole story . It more means "point" as in " No es el caso" (but you could equally say así or cierto or la verdad or cierto or absoluto). Un caso means a person. Hacer caso means to concentrate on what comes next.

See dictionaries are wrong. Sure, a table is una mesa, but "motivo" does not really mean motive (like in a murder), but because of.

You only really learn this stuff by speaking the language. Or by learning from colloquial sources (like movies that are spoken in colloquial dialogue for example). There is no Shaums Outline Series in this world that will teach you that stuff.

So my point is (caso;) ... more el punto es) that once your language is at about your stage, it is time to learn to actually speak it, and that can only be done by socialising in it. It comes to a point where you can do further work from books, or you can just start doing your relaxation activities in Spanish like meeting people at parties, watching movies, all the things you do in English.

To do that in Spanish you need to get into circles where they speak less English than you speak Spanish and you are actually using it (i.e. Salsatecas for example ... perhaps your boy-friends grand-ma, etc.)

You need to be comfortable in the subjunctive first. And really, it is not difficult and you use it all the time. We have it in English ... "If I were you ..." Why "were"? In every other verb we conjugate the same as the past tense "If I jumped over the log ...", "If I ran the marathon ...", but for the verb "to be" we can see the subjunctive "If I were you ...", illiterate people might conjucate it the same as "to run" and say "If I was you ..." but it jars on our ears. If you can say "If I were you ..." you are using the subjunctive. It is not so hard, is it?

So "finish" the language gramatically, and get into the way the real language is actually spoken. My advice.

Once you learn one language you see where the top of the mountain is and can see how close you are to the top and what you need to do. Your second language is easier for that reason ... you have mastered one. This is impossible to know when you are learning your first language. You are close to there.

Edit: and I only resond to you and have this conversation because you are the Spanish learner that is learning now, and I have things that I have always wanted to say to an intermediate learner (and I think you are advanced). Hopefully other Spanish learners will look this up in the future and read this. I mean it to everyone based on my experience with the language, and I realise everyone is different).

Edited by SlickAs on 27 October 2008 at 9:11am
2 persons have voted this message useful



xandreax
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5695 days ago
142 posts - 160 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 20 of 32
27 October 2008 at 5:58pm | IP Logged 
SlickAs wrote:
I write in English because I only have 10 minutes.

I learned Spanish with a couple of weeks of intensive Spanish school in Guanajuaro, Mexico and followed it with travel. I spent another useles week in a bad school in Honduras, and then at an English school in Colombia where the teacher had never taught Spanish. That is where I learned the subjunctive.

I then went into business with an Argentinian that I became friends with in part because I spoke Spanish (whom I met in university in Australia), and ended up moving to Argentina for 6 months where I got myself a girl-friend (who did not speak English) and was completely immersed in Spanish.

Now, on learning Spanish, it was always my goal to speak perfectly and colloquailly, and I achieved that. I still find it hard to write, but can work a room in a Spanish speaking party or gathering.

Now the reason, in my opinion that you are having trouble understanding spoken Spanish is that you believe that you can learn the language from books. You cant.

Take something simple: asking how much something is in a shop. A book will perhaps tell you that you need to say (forgive the lack of inverted question marks ... my keyboard is French) "Cuánto cuesta?". Perhaps that numbers need to agree as in "Cuánto cuestan?" for more than 1.

But the reality is that locals will more more than likely say "Cuánto es?" or "Cuánto son?" or "Cuánto vale?" (vale has a whole world of meanings), and more often than not will say "Cuánto cobran?" for a company or more likely "Cuánto cobras?". Now, cobrar is a verb that is used all the time in spoken speech. Like when a waitress is hanging around you might say "Querés cobrar?". It means "Would you like us to pay now?" or something similar without being awkward, and you use it all the time. TO a point where when re-entering the English world, you hate that there is no word for "cobrar" in English.

There are literally thousands of these ... many of them universal, many of them local to a country. You should hear me speak Spanish (in a way that is never written) ... the purists here would find it uneducated and offensive. I speak like "Che. Loca, voluda. Que querès? ..."

There is a lot of syntax in all languages. In English we might ask a slow-moving pizza seller to "step on it". Someone who has learned English from books might think that means that he should put it on the ground and trample upon it. Similarly in Spanish there are all sorts of these: one that springs to mind where I did not understand was someone who said "buscar tres pies al gato". It is these that make you not understand the spoken language.

Now, take something more simple. Caso. Every dictionary in the world will tell you
Caso n masc. case.
And you can ... in that case might be translated to "En aquel caso". But that is not really the whole story . It more means "point" as in " No es el caso" (but you could equally say así or cierto or la verdad or cierto or absoluto). Un caso means a person. Hacer caso means to concentrate on what comes next.

See dictionaries are wrong. Sure, a table is una mesa, but "motivo" does not really mean motive (like in a murder), but because of.

You only really learn this stuff by speaking the language. Or by learning from colloquial sources (like movies that are spoken in colloquial dialogue for example). There is no Shaums Outline Series in this world that will teach you that stuff.

So my point is (caso;) ... more el punto es) that once your language is at about your stage, it is time to learn to actually speak it, and that can only be done by socialising in it. It comes to a point where you can do further work from books, or you can just start doing your relaxation activities in Spanish like meeting people at parties, watching movies, all the things you do in English.

To do that in Spanish you need to get into circles where they speak less English than you speak Spanish and you are actually using it (i.e. Salsatecas for example ... perhaps your boy-friends grand-ma, etc.)

You need to be comfortable in the subjunctive first. And really, it is not difficult and you use it all the time. We have it in English ... "If I were you ..." Why "were"? In every other verb we conjugate the same as the past tense "If I jumped over the log ...", "If I ran the marathon ...", but for the verb "to be" we can see the subjunctive "If I were you ...", illiterate people might conjucate it the same as "to run" and say "If I was you ..." but it jars on our ears. If you can say "If I were you ..." you are using the subjunctive. It is not so hard, is it?

So "finish" the language gramatically, and get into the way the real language is actually spoken. My advice.

Once you learn one language you see where the top of the mountain is and can see how close you are to the top and what you need to do. Your second language is easier for that reason ... you have mastered one. This is impossible to know when you are learning your first language. You are close to there.

Edit: and I only resond to you and have this conversation because you are the Spanish learner that is learning now, and I have things that I have always wanted to say to an intermediate learner (and I think you are advanced). Hopefully other Spanish learners will look this up in the future and read this. I mean it to everyone based on my experience with the language, and I realise everyone is different).


Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree and understand much of what you say. The only part that doesn't seem right, is "Now the reason, in my opinion that you are having trouble understanding spoken Spanish is that you believe that you can learn the language from books. You cant." Maybe you meant spoken language, but up until now these books have helped me with all of the grammar I know and much of the vocabulary. I know this does only help up until some point and then you have to find the time and environment to speak it as much as possible and listen as much as possible. Well, if Puerto Rico was a more ideal place for Alex and I to live, (not over-populated, and better wages in general) I would think that living there would be a perfect opportunity to learn. Maybe visiting there for a few months or more will still help though. And I am realizing that although I try to speak to Alex daily he often soon goes back to speaking English and finds it much harder to talk to me for a long time in Spanish than with his family, because he says that's his "default language" when speaking to me as he has always done. It's too bad! When he calls up his family maybe I should just talk as well in a 3-way conversation or something. That would be fun. His little brother has already practiced his English with me on the phone.
And really I do love and enjoy the books and other written stuff though, whether they are for grammar or newspapers or books.
Also, I think the only reason I do not even consider myself advanced is because understanding even the gist of what people are saying out loud takes much concentration and focus for me and it seems that listening to people speaking quickly and understanding with ease as with English is far out of reach.

Anyway, nothing more. Hasta luego.

1 person has voted this message useful



SlickAs
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5672 days ago
185 posts - 287 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, French, Swedish
Studies: Thai, Vietnamese

 
 Message 21 of 32
27 October 2008 at 11:29pm | IP Logged 
xandreax wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree and understand much of what you say. The only part that doesn't seem right, is "Now the reason, in my opinion that you are having trouble understanding spoken Spanish is that you believe that you can learn the language from books. You cant." Maybe you meant spoken language, but up until now these books have helped me with all of the grammar I know and much of the vocabulary.

Yeah, sorry. I did not mean that. Whilest I spent time in Spanish Schools, etc, I did 90% of my learning on my own and from books. I meant that you can not get comfortable in the language from books. You could however, do it from other sources. I remember meeting in Sweden a guy with perfect English with an american accent who could recount perfectly whole sections of Eddie Murphy's stand up routine "Delerious" (that is definitely colloquial ... way too much swearing for an English student to be learning from!)

I know that even when I was living in Argentina and living, working, eating, sleeping, socialising, dreaming in Spanish I still had quiet time of language study. Dictionary out, word processor open, trying to perfect my standard conversatoin pieces that I had all the time ... the "where are you from?" conversations, the "where did you learn Spanish?" conversations, the "what are you doing here?" conversations, the "do you like Argentina?" conversations, the questions about my opinions on their food, their women, their football. I would go over conversations that I had in my head and dream up what I could have said. Look up a word that I am missing. Ask someone about the subtle meanings and connotations of a new word that I thought I knew from the dictionary, and glean the true sense of the word so that I can use it correctly.

So I did not mean to say that I didn't learn from private study but rather "just started speaking it, and it improved on its own" because that is not true.

xandreax wrote:
I know this does only help up until some point and then you have to find the time and environment to speak it as much as possible and listen as much as possible. Well, if Puerto Rico was a more ideal place for Alex and I to live, (not over-populated, and better wages in general) I would think that living there would be a perfect opportunity to learn. Maybe visiting there for a few months or more will still help though. And I am realizing that although I try to speak to Alex daily he often soon goes back to speaking English and finds it much harder to talk to me for a long time in Spanish than with his family, because he says that's his "default language" when speaking to me as he has always done. It's too bad! When he calls up his family maybe I should just talk as well in a 3-way conversation or something. That would be fun. His little brother has already practiced his English with me on the phone.

I honestly think as little as 2 weeks would do you wonders. It would get you speaking it to people who do not speak English. And you will realise you are close. Really close. It is the colloquial speech that you are not understanding.

I don't know if you have ever done this, but it really helps; if you rent a DVD from the video library and watch it in Spanish without any subtitles. I know it is impossible to understand, but you will pick up much from the action, the body language, the reactions. Then try to write a review in Spanish without any help. I mean just try to write a review based on what you understood. Then you can have a Spanish speaker read the review, and discuss the film. That experience closely mirrors the real experience of socialising in Spanish. You are out of your depth and swimming in the language. It is swerling around you, and the conversation moves onto something else even though you did not understand the last one ... the plot moves on regardless ... it is up to you to keep up. That is how it is for socialising and for watching a film. If you do that 4 or 5 times with good films, as long as you stick to one country (so the accent, and idiom do not change), you will find yourself starting to "get it".

Oh, and my girl-friend defaults to English with me too. When we speak in French, we will only do so until there is a word or 2 that I don't know or the concepts get to fast and quick for me to be bothered, and boom, we are back in English. So that is common.

I really think that your Spanish is better than you think it is. That if you were dropped alone into a small town Latin America for a couple of weeks where you were introduced to people and invited to a party, you would swim rather than sink with the Spanish you have. You'd be making friends and getting on with life.

Good luck with it. You are doing well.

1 person has voted this message useful



xandreax
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5695 days ago
142 posts - 160 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 22 of 32
28 October 2008 at 6:25pm | IP Logged 
SlickAs wrote:
xandreax wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree and understand much of what you say. The only part that doesn't seem right, is "Now the reason, in my opinion that you are having trouble understanding spoken Spanish is that you believe that you can learn the language from books. You cant." Maybe you meant spoken language, but up until now these books have helped me with all of the grammar I know and much of the vocabulary.

Yeah, sorry. I did not mean that. Whilest I spent time in Spanish Schools, etc, I did 90% of my learning on my own and from books. I meant that you can not get comfortable in the language from books. You could however, do it from other sources. I remember meeting in Sweden a guy with perfect English with an american accent who could recount perfectly whole sections of Eddie Murphy's stand up routine "Delerious" (that is definitely colloquial ... way too much swearing for an English student to be learning from!)

I know that even when I was living in Argentina and living, working, eating, sleeping, socialising, dreaming in Spanish I still had quiet time of language study. Dictionary out, word processor open, trying to perfect my standard conversatoin pieces that I had all the time ... the "where are you from?" conversations, the "where did you learn Spanish?" conversations, the "what are you doing here?" conversations, the "do you like Argentina?" conversations, the questions about my opinions on their food, their women, their football. I would go over conversations that I had in my head and dream up what I could have said. Look up a word that I am missing. Ask someone about the subtle meanings and connotations of a new word that I thought I knew from the dictionary, and glean the true sense of the word so that I can use it correctly.

So I did not mean to say that I didn't learn from private study but rather "just started speaking it, and it improved on its own" because that is not true.

xandreax wrote:
I know this does only help up until some point and then you have to find the time and environment to speak it as much as possible and listen as much as possible. Well, if Puerto Rico was a more ideal place for Alex and I to live, (not over-populated, and better wages in general) I would think that living there would be a perfect opportunity to learn. Maybe visiting there for a few months or more will still help though. And I am realizing that although I try to speak to Alex daily he often soon goes back to speaking English and finds it much harder to talk to me for a long time in Spanish than with his family, because he says that's his "default language" when speaking to me as he has always done. It's too bad! When he calls up his family maybe I should just talk as well in a 3-way conversation or something. That would be fun. His little brother has already practiced his English with me on the phone.

I honestly think as little as 2 weeks would do you wonders. It would get you speaking it to people who do not speak English. And you will realise you are close. Really close. It is the colloquial speech that you are not understanding.

I don't know if you have ever done this, but it really helps; if you rent a DVD from the video library and watch it in Spanish without any subtitles. I know it is impossible to understand, but you will pick up much from the action, the body language, the reactions. Then try to write a review in Spanish without any help. I mean just try to write a review based on what you understood. Then you can have a Spanish speaker read the review, and discuss the film. That experience closely mirrors the real experience of socialising in Spanish. You are out of your depth and swimming in the language. It is swerling around you, and the conversation moves onto something else even though you did not understand the last one ... the plot moves on regardless ... it is up to you to keep up. That is how it is for socialising and for watching a film. If you do that 4 or 5 times with good films, as long as you stick to one country (so the accent, and idiom do not change), you will find yourself starting to "get it".

Oh, and my girl-friend defaults to English with me too. When we speak in French, we will only do so until there is a word or 2 that I don't know or the concepts get to fast and quick for me to be bothered, and boom, we are back in English. So that is common.

I really think that your Spanish is better than you think it is. That if you were dropped alone into a small town Latin America for a couple of weeks where you were introduced to people and invited to a party, you would swim rather than sink with the Spanish you have. You'd be making friends and getting on with life.

Good luck with it. You are doing well.


Thanks! Your input really helps.
1 person has voted this message useful



xandreax
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5695 days ago
142 posts - 160 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 23 of 32
03 December 2008 at 4:00pm | IP Logged 
Chapter 1: The Spanish Subjunctive Up Close

When to use the subjunctive and how to form its four tenses

-Present subjunctive (ex. tu/poder ...puedas)
-Imperfect Subjunctive (ex. tu/poder... pudieras)
-Present Perfect Subjunctive (ex. tu/poder... hayas podido)
-Pluperfect Subjunctive (ex. tu/poder... hubieras podido)

1 person has voted this message useful



xandreax
Diglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5695 days ago
142 posts - 160 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Italian

 
 Message 24 of 32
09 February 2009 at 5:09pm | IP Logged 
Almost done the book on the Spanish Subjunctive... it is really clear and helpful but I may go through it completely again. I really want to make sure I am using it correctly.


1 person has voted this message useful



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