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Muddling through in TAC ’10 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| annette Senior Member United States Joined 5510 days ago 164 posts - 192 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 81 of 95 09 August 2010 at 4:35am | IP Logged |
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Oh, and one more thing - I started listening to the Deutsche Welle podcast on Friday!!!
Yes, guys, for ONCE I am living up to my third lonely tag! Have any of you guys heard this thing? Maybe I'm just sleep-deprived, but the first two episodes are COMEDY. I cracked up so hard when they put the clip of the German baby crying, and then the presenter was like, "This is a baby crying," or whatever. I'm so glad I now know what a German baby sounds like as opposed to an American baby. That's totally gonna help with my language acquisition right there. Anyway, the first two episodes didn't teach much at all, but apparently the third episode is where the lessons (what little substance they might have) begin in earnest. I listened to the third episode in Arabic, so I understood very little indeed and can't say I learned anything there. I will listen again in a language I actually comprehend soon. I listened to the first two episodes in Chinese and I have to say that I learned much more Chinese than German from those. It strikes me that this would probably be a great resource for intermediate learners. The content is pretty simple, but they still use some more advanced vocabulary at times as it is ultimately a resource for native Chinese speakers. There was definitely a time or two when I understood the meaning of the Chinese sentence but might not have been able to reproduce certain of the terms myself off the tip of my tongue... that's a pretty good recommendation for intermediate students, because I would say that although, after this past year of essentially total- immersion-at-home, I sound fluent when speaking and no longer need to think before spewing out rapid Chinese (thanks, mom!), the actual level of my vocabulary/sentence structure is generally pretty basic! For all the frills, I'm definitely an intermediate student here! (I would consider myself an upper intermediate student right now in listening comprehension and lower intermediate in amount of characters learned/recognized.) Edited by annette on 09 August 2010 at 4:41am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| annette Senior Member United States Joined 5510 days ago 164 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* | Message 82 of 95 11 August 2010 at 6:50pm | IP Logged |
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So lately people have been suggesting that I learn French and German to reading
proficiency for my academic studies as part of my long-term plan. This sounds really reasonable to me, but what with actual academic commitments and all, I don't know if I'll have enough time to do the type of study that I prefer to do (heck, I haven't even truly started German yet and it's been on my list at least since January). So my plan right now is that I can slowly, slowly, slowly begin work on one and simultaneously keep up with all the other things I have to do for school (Arabic, Chinese, Middle Egyptian, possibly Hebrew, OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE TO MYSELF). (I anticipate at least one argument with my advisor before he signs off on my course schedule. "Why the hell are you taking three languages courses??" The sticking point is going to be Chinese as that language, however much I love it, ultimately will probably have a sum total of nothing to do with my major, unlike the rest. I'm going to argue it from the point of embracing my own cultural heritage and "just for fun.") Anyway. The next decision to make is: if I wanted to start either French or German and study at a very slow and relaxed pace with the sole goal of reading proficiency (thus cutting out a LOT of time and effort, because listening/speaking proficiency always requires more exposure), which one should I start with? I'm leaning towards German because I've always been more curious about German and hey, even my TAC log says German on it already. On the other hand, French is one of those things that everyone knows and that I therefore should probably have some familiarity with. And at this point, I don't know which ultimately will have more bearing on my major, which I technically haven't even committed to yet. On another note, I'm starting to think that my TAC really should be Chinese and English... all this language study is starting to addle my brains and weaken my formerly firm grasp on my native language! Edited by annette on 12 August 2010 at 12:20am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| annette Senior Member United States Joined 5510 days ago 164 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* | Message 83 of 95 13 August 2010 at 4:51am | IP Logged |
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Finally got ahold of my new text that I have to cram the vocabulary for! After a week
of feeling pretty great about my Chinese abilities, now comes a week of, I foresee, feeling kinda behind. This textbook is technically a second-year textbook (for the heritage speaker class, so it's more advanced than the regular course), but there are a surprising number of vocabulary that I wasn't really that familiar with! There were quite a lot that I need to study how to write and even a few that I honestly hadn't heard before. Yay review? Luckily for my ego, the majority of the vocabulary terms were ones I knew or could guess (=knew the single character components of). So I am not totally beyond hope. If I manage to learn this stuff really, really well, I should be set. I'm going to guess that my speaking/listening proficiency + 2nd year heritage track writing/reading proficiency should be at least equivalent to the proficiency of a student who has just completed the 3rd year regular track, possibly better (speaking/listening is hard to develop). And that will bring me to right where I hope to place this fall. All the courses I want to take have that as the prerequisite! I have about a week left for cramming, basically, and then scattered time for review here and there. I have 16 pages' worth of vocabulary glossary, with approximately 40 vocab words per page to review (if my current rate is anything to go by). Wish me luck! 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| annette Senior Member United States Joined 5510 days ago 164 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* | Message 84 of 95 14 August 2010 at 11:01pm | IP Logged |
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Sometime I'm going to have go on a rant here about a surprisingly common phenomenon: people who have never
reached any proficiency in Chinese or often have never even studied Chinese saying that Chinese is the easiest language ever. I don't have time now to really give this topic the undeserved vitriol I wish I could spit at it, but basically it's like this. Chinese is an extraordinarily difficult language. However, the grammar seems "easy" in comparison to languages with cases, more complex tenses, etc, such as English and Arabic, just to name two. Therefore, you have all these inflated blowhards who have had this perfectly reasonable statement go in one ear and come out the other strutting around claiming that Chinese as a whole is "the easiest language ever" and other such grotesque misinterpretations. This sentence is most often used to scorn and denigrate those who actually, genuinely work at Chinese. "This language is so easy, why is it taking you that long? Har de har, you must be dumb." Or alternately, "I'm an asshat in need of an ego boost... look at how dumb and silly your simple language is compared to this awesome language I am studying, and therefore how dumb and silly you are to be spending so much effort with so few dividends while I can already read Le Monde because I am smarter than you." (paraphrased actual conversations that happen with unsurprising frequency) This sentence is also often used by misguided idiots who have not yet made any meaningful efforts in Chinese and assume that because they can now say "ni hao" with an incomprehensible accent and near-absence of basic tones (and let's not even get onto the complexities of intonation, which I have yet to see more than a handful of Americans, at least, reproduce with any accuracy), that because they have learned a phrase from a tourist handbook somewhere or once had an "Asian friend" who taught them a word of Chinese that likely was actually Korean, therefore they now are able to make sweeping statements on the great and complex thing that is the Chinese language and call it "easy." (I may not be the foremost authority on the Chinese language but I hope you'll bear with me when I tell you that I have more experience and thus a better position from which to speculate on the difficulty of Chinese than these numbnuts.) I'll admit to having said this sentence once or twice while trying to convince friendly acquaintances that Chinese is a worthwhile course of study. "Look at how cool this language is! Look at what you'll be able to do! And it's not even that intimidating, despite all the scratchy characters... how perfect, right?" But it still drives me absolutely off the wall when people use this statement to dismiss the efforts of those attempting to learn what, ultimately, is quite a difficult language. Here are some things that make Chinese difficult (note use of descriptive adjective, not the comparative): - the characters. Enough said. - The huge rift in register between literary Chinese and spoken Chinese, media Chinese and conversational Chinese. I am not a language teacher; I don't know how best these should be taught. But I do know that I know multiple ambitious language learners who happily begin their studies in newspaper Chinese while still at a very basic level and fck up their spoken Chinese in hilarious ways, among other things. Color me unimpressed. That said, I know many more language learners who have managed to balance this divide quite well, sometimes better than me (my media Chinese sucks!). - The intonation... and no, I'm not just talking about first tone, second tone, third tone, fourth tone, qing tone. I'm talking about the greater structures of intonation in every sentence. I meet many students who can approximate the five tones with quite some accuracy when pronouncing each tone by itself, but I have met maybe only one or two foreigners (not counting all the professors I know) who can at all replicate the deeper patterns. This requires a lot of exposure and maybe some attention. I could speak forever about the various things I've noticed here, but here's a very basic and obvious example: students very frequently pitch their first tone too high and subsequently do not know how to pronounce their following tones in a sentence (as each tone is defined in a sentence by its proximity pitch-wise to its brethren). As a result, they sound ridiculous. Of course I understand that not every learner wants a native accent or even just "coherent, educated, lightly accented speech that nonetheless nobody will mock you for" (my goal), but it has to be said: there needs to be more attention paid to intonation. - Here's another one about register that's tricky. Some phrases you need two-character words for from such and such a register. Some words or structures you need to follow with four-character phrases for from such and such a register. And so on. Any substitution will sound unnatural. This is another one that needs exposure because textbooks never tell you useful things like this, you just have to read and listen a lot and think, "Hey, this phrase always seems to be followed by a two-word abstract verb..." - The use of compound words. These really trip students up a lot. - Unlike many other languages, Chinese is very difficult to translate literally into English. I am currently studying Arabic and I'm far from proficient, but I'm able to read newspapers with relative ease (something I definitely can't say for Chinese yet!). Anyway, often in Arabic you will find that if you know the meaning of every word in the sentence, you will know the meaning of the sentence. If you know how to translate every word in the sentence into English, you will know how to translate the sentence into English. There's a little bit of shuffling when it comes to sentence order, true, that basic Chinese doesn't have, but - from my meager experience - often that's about it. (Well, literature is another beast, but let's keep on topic.) Meanwhile, in Chinese, knowing every character in a sentence does not guarantee that you understand the sentence. Knowing every word (phrase) in the sentence doesn't necessarily guarantee that you understand the sentence. Understanding the sentence doesn't guarantee that you'll be able to translate it with the degree of literality (typical caveats included) that you could translate Arabic... or better yet, that you could translate a Romance language, from what I hear. Often enough, with Chinese I find that [word A] + [word B] =/= word A + word B. I'm now bored of writing this tangent. I've lost steam and direction. But seriously guys, I'm not joking when I say that out of all the languages I have ever studied to whatever degree of proficiency (or non-proficiency) I've attained in them... at this point, I would say that Chinese is easily the hardest. Now I'm not saying that Chinese is the most difficult language EVARR. But even for the type of person who does not aim as high as I do, even for the type of person who only wants to learn how to order dim sum in their "authentic" Chinese restaurant that caters exclusively to fetishizing yanggui (hmm, maybe a later rant is in order on rice queens and yellow fever)... I hope you can agree with me when I say that Chinese is certainly not the easiest. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| annette Senior Member United States Joined 5510 days ago 164 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* | Message 85 of 95 16 August 2010 at 8:13am | IP Logged |
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Wow, I must have been really tired that other day!
Just some orders of business. - Posted in my old log for probably the last time. It's awfully strange to see your old posts. I was so incredibly frustrated with Arabic at that time! Obviously I still have my moments of frustration, but honestly I'm starting to consider Arabic my haven! Chinese causes me more stress because there is pressure on me to "be good at it" and I don't even know half the media phrases in Chinese that I know in Arabic. for my own reference - Had some more Mandarin conversations with strangers today. I will never get used to the fact that people simply do not think I'm Chinese. Which, you know, is true in a way (I'm only half), but I really identify as Asian most of the time. I guess I just look like a big fat laowai. It's funny to see people start when I open my mouth and start speaking though. - As much as I would like to learn some German, it's looking like French is more necessary for me at this point. I really need reading proficiency in French for my major and areas of academic interest. I also apparently already have some French textbooks around my mother's house, although I have no idea what or where. I know I can't afford to spend a course slot on French and I really don't want to spend a summer either, so my options are a free class (but where?) or self-study (more likely). I figure if I start now, I can take it slowly and still gain reading proficiency before graduate school applications, etc. (Though preferably sooner yet.) - That said, with my favored method of intense procrastination followed by intense study, I don't know if I can afford to fit French into my schedule. I may already be cramming another language into the mess in the fall - we'll see if my advisor signs off on my course schedule! - Arabic... today I watched a lot of children's cartoons. This is rapidly becoming my favorite thing to do and claim is studying. Now I am working on a translation of a short story that I started in the spring but probably am much better-equipped to handle now. I'm both amused and scandalized at my old mistakes. Sign of improvement? To keep motivation up, you gotta look out for those. Edited by annette on 10 September 2010 at 7:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| annette Senior Member United States Joined 5510 days ago 164 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* | Message 86 of 95 21 August 2010 at 1:42am | IP Logged |
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No time lately.
I've made flashcards for about 1/4th of the glossary but am now abandoning that project to cram as many basic/high frequency characters as possible before my placement test, which is in a little over a week but I won't have any time for study. Tired. Need to create alternate course schedule in pursuit of ADVENTURE. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| annette Senior Member United States Joined 5510 days ago 164 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* | Message 87 of 95 22 August 2010 at 6:05am | IP Logged |
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I did the first part of my placement test online. Was pleasantly surprised to find that I didn't do as badly as I thought
I would but also didn't do perfectly (which is great - I don't want to place in an upper level class, I want to place in an intermediate class where I will learn useful things but also get good grades). I have a "writing" section that I need to print out again and bring with me to the in-person placement, then I have an interview at which I have a variety of things I need to remember to bring up in conversation (note to self: PREPARE LIST), then I have to do some reading out loud which I should probably practice for and I'll be fine. I'm going MIA from studies again for a week at least, but I hope to assemble or secure a beginner level character list to do some quick review with before my placement test on next Monday or so. I also need to do some quick review for Arabic but I'm more worried about Chinese right now. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| annette Senior Member United States Joined 5510 days ago 164 posts - 192 votes Speaks: English* | Message 88 of 95 10 September 2010 at 7:36pm | IP Logged |
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Exhausted.
I took my placement tests for Mandarin and Arabic and did all right. The Mandarin class I'm in is actually a little bit below my level, which is actually perfect and what I was aiming for. I just hope they don't bump me up a level because I am quite obviously more orally fluent than my classmates, although our writing/reading is probably about the same. I've been so tired in this particular class lately that I haven't really participated much (and when I do I've been stumbling more than usual), so if I just keep up the sub-par work for another week I should be fine. I mean, they can't really bounce me to another level that easily once the school year has started in earnest... Arabic is a mixed bag. Generally speaking, I think I'm about even with most of my classmates, minus heritage speakers and things like that. But I'm not sure yet how easily I will be able to keep up with the work or how much I will be able to improve in this course (especially speaking - I also haven't really made any Arabic-speaking friends yet so I don't know yet how I can improve or practice that). It's very stressful and I think one of my professors is actually sick of me. As in, a new development in the last week. I mean... rationally I know he probably isn't. But I just have this strange, intense conviction that he does not want to see me around at office hours anymore. I'll probably avoid him for a week or two and go to office hours with other people and hope that after that short break we'll be back to interacting like normal. So that's placement. In terms of language learning both are going a little slowly, as most classes do. The good thing about classes however is that it really forces me to work on these languages regularly, something I might not do as well were I studying purely on my own time. Edited by annette on 10 September 2010 at 7:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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