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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| lengua Senior Member United States polyglottery.wordpre Joined 6686 days ago 549 posts - 595 votes  Studies: French, Italian, Spanish, German | Message 73 of 83 20 October 2006 at 9:06am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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However, a motivated adult with an effective study plan will not require five years to surpass (much less acquire) the grammatical or lexical abilities of a five year old. We can take advantage of things gained in adulthood to help us learn languages more quickly. Edited by lengua on 20 October 2006 at 9:11am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Linguamor Decaglot Senior Member United States Joined 6620 days ago 469 posts - 599 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch | Message 74 of 83 20 October 2006 at 11:58am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Without meaningful exposure to the language (comprehensible input), the adult learner will never match the grammatical accuracy of the 5-year-old, nor use the vocabulary in a native-like way.
In a classroom setting, adults do learn more quickly than adults, but classroom language learning often results in only very low levels of language proficiency.Under naturalistic conditions, children (before the critical period) learn faster than adults. I have known many adults who have struggled for years (studying grammar, memorizing words) to learn a language and still could not keep up a simple conversation.For those who were interested, I was able to help them to fluency in a matter of weeks with (you guessed it) comprehensible input. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6859 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 75 of 83 20 October 2006 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Can you explain more what comprehensible input is? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7017 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 76 of 83 20 October 2006 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That's exactly what I meant. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Linguamor Decaglot Senior Member United States Joined 6620 days ago 469 posts - 599 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch | Message 77 of 83 20 October 2006 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Comprehensible input is simply language that is understood. Imagine you are sitting on a train and there is a mother and child sitting across from you. The child won't stay seated, and the mother repeatedly replaces the child on the seat while saying "sit" in the local language. It's a long train ride and the mother and child are hard to ignore. The child is receiving comprehensible input, and so are you. This is a real, if simple example. The human brain is designed to learn language this way, and adults still have this natural language learning ability. We acquire languages when we understand messages in the language. Studying grammar and vocabulary may contribute to learning a language - they make input more comprehensible - but comprehensible input is necessary for real fluency and accuracy. Listening to language recordings or radio, reading, watching TV and movies, or conversing in a language with native speakers - these are all sources of comprehensible input. Whenever you are understanding bits of language you did not understand before, your brain is receiving the data it needs to acquire the language. Edited by Linguamor on 20 October 2006 at 2:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Linguamor Decaglot Senior Member United States Joined 6620 days ago 469 posts - 599 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch | Message 78 of 83 20 October 2006 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The level reached by the motivated adult after five years will depend on his/her language learning aptitude and on what the "study plan" involves. Most, especially if they have had only limited amounts of comprehensible input, will make mistakes of a type not made by native speakers, even five-year-old native speakers, for example gender agreement mistakes, mistakes using the subjunctive, non-native-like use of vocabulary, etc. There is abundant second language acquisition research attesting to this. Edited by Linguamor on 20 October 2006 at 2:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 7017 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 79 of 83 20 October 2006 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Some adults might be forced to learn languages even though they hate it (perhaps they have to emigrate or their job demands it) and they might struggle since they have a self-imposed mental barrier against the language. I think that most adults are under the impression that it's either impossible to learn a new language as an adult (therefore they never try) or, when they bravely take the plunge, they become disillusioned after a few days of using the latest guaranteed method (which promises complete fluency after studying for 5 minutes a day for three months). It takes a great deal of motivation to learn a language and I would imagine that those who can be bothered to persevere with their language of choice must also be exposed to quite a large amount of comprehensible input. Therefore, I would say that after five years of serious studying and learning, including using native materials (books, TV, radio, etc solely in the language) and possibly an immersion trip or two, any adult should have a larger vocabulary and be able to express him/herself better than a five-year-old native.
Would it be possible to provide a link to some of this research? Edited by patuco on 20 October 2006 at 4:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| lengua Senior Member United States polyglottery.wordpre Joined 6686 days ago 549 posts - 595 votes Studies: French, Italian, Spanish, German | Message 80 of 83 20 October 2006 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Speaking of research, most of what I've read would disagree with this. Rather, the research I've read suggests a five year old frequently makes mistakes in gender assignment, as well as in his or her understanding of the subjunctive. These mistakes are improved with time, but only over a period of several years - well into adolescence, in fact. I would not say a child's understanding of either vocabulary or complex grammatical properties would be better than the comprehension of an adult *effectively* studying the same language for the same period of time. Link 1.
Link 2.
Link 3.
Lots more research is available via Pubmed or Google Scholar, though in the older articles, it can be difficult to find more than the abstract for free online. Edited by lengua on 20 October 2006 at 6:29pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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