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Overcoming L/R for Japanese -- possible? | ||
Tags: Pronunciation | Japanese | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5176 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 1 of 26 16 July 2010 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Do you know of any Japanese person who's managed to master the pronunciation of L vs. R when learning a foreign language? Any insight on how they achieved it?
I've been wondering about that as I watch my Japanese friends desperately struggle to not only hear and produce the sounds, but to actually remember which is which even in writing. (Goes without saying that I'm refering to people who did not learn the language in a more or less native setting or at a young age.) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| TixhiiDon Tetraglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5259 days ago 772 posts - 1474 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, German, Russian Studies: Georgian | Message 2 of 26 16 July 2010 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I know a few people that can do it. I have a friend who lived in England for 6 years
between the ages of 16 and 22 and he speaks English with a beautiful English accent - it's very cool. Other people I know who've learned English in adulthood also manage it but they seem to have to make a quite deliberate effort. Their "L"s always sound a little bit forced. I think words ending in "L" are the toughest. I named my dog "Dill", which is just about the worst combination of sounds anyone could come up with for a Japanese person to pronounce! Should have stuck with Taro... Spelling is another matter completely! They always mix up the two. I find it fascinating that for the Japanese, the simple fact that there is actually a difference between "L" and "R" is such an alien concept. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| kidshomestunner Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6200 days ago 239 posts - 285 votes Speaks: Japanese | Message 3 of 26 17 July 2010 at 12:15am | IP Logged | |||||
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I know of only two who I have NEVER known to make a slip up with 'l' and 'r', and one of them was my lecturer who had studied English at a seriously advanced level. I know many who are perfect all the time but make the occasional mistake.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| sei Diglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 5736 days ago 178 posts - 191 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English Studies: German, Japanese | Message 4 of 26 17 July 2010 at 2:03am | IP Logged | |||||
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This is quite a common problem, and very hard one to overcome, for any person who was never aware of differences between 2 sounds. Usually this causes problems in writing due to the brain not being able to audibly distinguish the sounds (or not being automatized yet).
This happens sometimes with people who speak certain dialects in Portugal - for example, those who switch every /v/ sound to /b/. Later, when the child is learning to write, they are forced to come to a Speech and Language Pathologist, because the child has writing difficulties, as she doesn't know when she should write one or the other sound. And often, treatment is complicated, specially with kids, because they do not understand the difference in the sounds. I've never had an adult patient which similar problems, but specially for foreigners not too exposed to the target language, I imagine this could be quite a difficult problem to get past. If I could recommend anything to help, I'd recommend trying to watch a video with the problem sounds, and looking at the differences in articulation, then trying to produce them while watching the video, and then watch/listen to some words being articulated slowly and precisely. After the person really understands the differences in the sounds, and can identify them by only listening to them, it's mostly a matter of constantly working to be conscious about the sound when speaking and listening, and it will eventually become automatized. Here is one site I recently found which is good for this. Hope this helps anyone with similar problems! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Tyr Senior Member Sweden Joined 5577 days ago 316 posts - 384 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 5 of 26 17 July 2010 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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How is it so hard anyway?
Sure, they don't have it in their language and I'm biased with it being part of my native tongue but...it seems quite clear to me l comes from the front of the math whilst r comes from deep in the throat. European Rs...sure. They're mad. I can't do them. But English Rs don't seem too bad....Can they not do the back of the throat thing what with it not being natural in Japanese? Its a stereotype of Japanese that they can't do this but...most I've met seem to be able to do it alright. But then the Japanese I meet are mostly top students or students specificailly studying English. I haven't had the opportunity to go to Japan and encounter the general population. Edited by Tyr on 17 July 2010 at 1:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| sei Diglot Senior Member Portugal Joined 5736 days ago 178 posts - 191 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English Studies: German, Japanese | Message 6 of 26 17 July 2010 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
Huh? English /r/ from deep in the throat? The English /r/ is either a tapping movement of the apex of tongue, or a trill motion of the tongue... I cannot be sure, but I'm guessing the use of either of these is dependent of the dialect, or preference. But a /r/ from deep in the throat? I don't remember ever listening to that in English. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5176 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 7 of 26 17 July 2010 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
One reason the (North American) r is hard to say is that it's an approximant; it's like a vowel in the sense that no part of the tongue touches the roof of the mouth, so finding the exact placement is difficult. Besides, if you can't do the "European R", it shouldn't be too hard to imagine that a person who has no L and R distinction in their language would find any R difficult. No stereotype here. In any case, even when Japanese people can make the sounds, the problem is that they can't figure out or remember which is which when they talk or they have to spell a word. I'm not sure how many Japanese people you have met, Tyr, but we haven't met the same ones. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Tyr Senior Member Sweden Joined 5577 days ago 316 posts - 384 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 8 of 26 17 July 2010 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
Thats the way it sounds to me. Luh is a definite big flick of the tongue and the sound being more forward in the mouth. Ruh meanwhile has the tongue remaining quite flat and everything from the back. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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