mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5014 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese
| Message 1 of 10 16 August 2010 at 11:15pm | IP Logged |
I've been studying German off and on for the last two years, and although I'm nearly as fluent (not much anyway) as I was 15 years ago, I have this accent problem that really bothers me.
Being a native Spanish speaker, one of the most difficult sound challenges of German was the guttural 'r', which is not trilled but more similar to a Spanish 'g' rather than an 'r'. I think I managed to more or less get it in the end, but I am having problems with 'g's and 'r's in German, especially at the beginning of words.
For example, if I say 'Gratz' I sound almost as I'm saying 'ratz', although fortunately I can make 'gatz' sound different. Is this how it is supposed to work ('Gratz' sounds the same as 'ratz'), or am I facing a real accent problem?
1 person has voted this message useful
|
Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5554 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin
| Message 2 of 10 17 August 2010 at 11:22am | IP Logged |
it should almost sound like cjats read by a Spanish speaker, just with the first consonant cluster voiced instead of voiceless.
1 person has voted this message useful
|
zekecoma Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5132 days ago 561 posts - 655 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish
| Message 3 of 10 17 August 2010 at 1:56pm | IP Logged |
The way I say the 'g' and 'r'. Depending on the position of 'g', it would sound like the
normal 'g' as in English like as in Gratz word. But if the 'g' is at the end like as in
zwanzig it would be pronouned as a 'k'. The 'r' sounds more like 'air'. But, that's how I
think it's pronounced to me.
1 person has voted this message useful
|
Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5108 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English
| Message 4 of 10 17 August 2010 at 2:41pm | IP Logged |
mrwarper wrote:
Being a native Spanish speaker, one of the most difficult sound challenges of German was the guttural 'r', which is not trilled but more similar to a Spanish 'g' rather than an 'r'. |
|
|
Actually, a trilled r [r] is one of the three acceptable ways to pronounce a German r. (The other two are [ʀ] and [ʁ].) You might just have to tone it down a bit. BTW, many German stage actors still use a trilled r for emphasis and both in the north and in the south of Germany many native speakers speak a trilled r.
1 person has voted this message useful
|
mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5014 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese
| Message 5 of 10 17 August 2010 at 5:37pm | IP Logged |
Bao wrote:
it should almost sound like cjats read by a Spanish speaker, just with the first consonant cluster voiced instead of voiceless. |
|
|
Yes, I sound 'exactly' like that. My question raised when I realized it also very similar to 'ratz', so the question would be if there should be an audible difference between starting a word with "gr" and simply with "r".
Doitsujin wrote:
Actually, a trilled r [r] is one of the three acceptable ways[...]many German stage actors still use a trilled r for emphasis and both in the north and in the south of Germany many native speakers speak a trilled r. |
|
|
That explains why I've noticed so many Germanoparlantes doing really good Spanish rs with little to no training while others sucked after years of trying. The more you know :)
1 person has voted this message useful
|
Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5554 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin
| Message 6 of 10 17 August 2010 at 9:07pm | IP Logged |
There is an audible difference! It's ... like the word suddenly sets on at the place where you form your ks, gs and cs, then rolls over the place of j/ch/uvular r to a long a and in the front of your mouth dies down over a 'ts' sound. Without the initial explosion the word lacks something, just as if you were to ponounce Madrid as Marid.
1 person has voted this message useful
|
mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5014 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese
| Message 7 of 10 17 August 2010 at 11:21pm | IP Logged |
Could any charitable German native post a sound sample with a couple of identical words, one beginning with "gr" and the other one with "r"?
Pretty please, with sugar on? ;)
1 person has voted this message useful
|
IronFist Senior Member United States Joined 6225 days ago 663 posts - 941 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean
| Message 8 of 10 08 September 2010 at 8:06pm | IP Logged |
Doitsujin wrote:
Actually, a trilled r [r] is one of the three acceptable ways to pronounce a German r. (The other two are [ʀ] and [ʁ].) |
|
|
For us non-linguists who don't know those symbols, what's the difference between those two (the R and the upside down R)?
Oh and I agree, initial "Gr" is one of the hardest sounds to pronounce in German.
Try saying it really slowly at first: "G----ratz" (it would sound like "guhhhhh-ratz". Then just start saying it faster and faster until it becomes one syllable: Gratz.
I understand your difficulty, however. It seems that some days I can pronounce it correctly, and other days my mouth just won't do it correctly and it ends up sounding like "guats" or "Hats" (with H being a hard, guttural "H" sound).
Edited by IronFist on 08 September 2010 at 8:10pm
1 person has voted this message useful
|