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My Thoughts On Sentence Mining and others | ||
Tags: Goals | Learning Technique/Method | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| mpete16 Diglot Groupie Germany Joined 5315 days ago 98 posts - 114 votes  Speaks: Tagalog, English* Studies: German | Message 1 of 66 17 August 2010 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've been thinking about different language learning methods, specifically "Sentence
Mining" and the way Benny the Irish Polyglot learned his languages (which is similar, if not identical, to the way Francois learned his). For the purposes of this post, let's call the latter the "Irish Method". Both have pros and cons, their good sides and bad sides. Sentence Mining probably makes you sound more native like (you don't make mistakes like "building place" instead of "building site"). On the other hand, I think the Irish Method is a faster way to learn a language, especially if you use an SRS. (I hate those paper flashcards - wasted so much time on them). Personally, I use Sentence Mining for German because I want to sound native-like (I'm German but didn't learn it as my mother tongue) and I feel it's an obligation for me to do so. Plus I'm going to school here in Germany now and don't want teachers to read my essays and go "is he really German?" :) So, I don't think there is a "superior" method. It depends on your goals. Are you willing to spend more time to sound like a native, or do you need to be able to speak the language as soon as possible? What are your thoughts? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| The Real CZ Senior Member United States Joined 5442 days ago 1069 posts - 1495 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 2 of 66 18 August 2010 at 4:20am | IP Logged | ||
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Um, what is the Irish Method? As far as I know, it's talk as much as possible, so I don't really see any similarities with a SRS program and sentence mining...
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| kyssäkaali Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5346 days ago 203 posts - 376 votes Speaks: English*, Finnish | Message 3 of 66 18 August 2010 at 4:59am | IP Logged | ||
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I used to sentence mine all the time when I first began learning Finnish and continued doing so for about the first 2 years. It definitely helped but is also very tedious and time-consuming and don't do it very much anymore, if at all. I know I don't sound like a native but I understand what is being said to me and others understand what is being said by me to them, so I'm content. If you read or hear your L2 constantly then you will eventually just know more or less how to build a proper sentence, even with a language like Finnish where the syntax can at times be completely backwards when compared to English.
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| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6742 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 4 of 66 18 August 2010 at 8:59am | IP Logged | ||
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I have thought the same thing myself. The 10,000 sentences method is superior in that you're eventually supposed to end up with native-like accuracy, whereas the 'Irish method' (not so much a method as an attitude, I think) is preferable for people who don't want to wait for that and don't require perfection; they see communication as taking precedence over accuracy (as long as the meaning gets through). (It should be noted that the people in the latter category also work to refine their accuracy in the long-run, but may not reach the native-like level of those who start with passive input because some mistakes and non-native pronunciations tend to become 'fossilized').
In my case, for example, Persian is my heritage language, which I regret having grown up without knowing. Also, I'm fascinated with Persian culture and would like to know as much about the Middle East as possible. For these two reasons, my study of Persian will be very precious to me, so I won't mind taking my sweet time to get it right in order to have native-like pronunciation and understand everything from classical poetry to street slang. This would be an ideal candidate for an input-based method. On the other hand, my boyfriend started working at a restaurant in which most of the other workers are immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala. They're very friendly and funny, and my boyfriend takes his lunch breaks with them, where they spend the time teasing each other. His motivation for learning Spanish is that he wants to talk to his new friends as soon as possible - just enough to communicate is fine. The language is mainly just a tool of communication here, not so much an intellectual pursuit taken on for its own sake. He doesn't plan to live or work long-term in a Spanish-speaking country, read centuries-old literature, or anything like that, and he doesn't think it's the end of the world if he has a non-native accent. I think an output-based learning style like Benny's would be more suitable in this case. Of course, there might be other languages which I'd be better off learning with that kind of method, and my boyfriend's goals for English are more suited to an input-based method, so it might depend as much on the goals for each specific language as it does on the learner's preferences. @The Real CZ: 'Talk as much as possible' (and I'd add, 'as early as possible') pretty much sums it up. You're right, it has nothing in common with SRS/sentence mining, which is why the OP is contrasting the two methods. I think the discussion boils down to the relative pros and cons of output as soon as possible (a la Benny, Francois, Moses McCormick) vs. building a foundation with passive input before attempting output (AJATT, L-R Method). Edited by Lucky Charms on 18 August 2010 at 9:31am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| M. Medialis Diglot TAC 2010 Winner Senior Member Sweden Joined 6150 days ago 397 posts - 508 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Russian, Japanese, French | Message 5 of 66 18 August 2010 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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My personal humble opinion:
If you don't know that "building place" is wrong, you may not be able to catch puns in the language. Some years ago, me and my friends started to mix up the gender of Swedish words just for the comical effect: "ett bil" instead of "en bil". If you can't catch that kind of subtleties, you'll either miss the joke, or the people around you will have to adjust their speech and jokes to your level. It's of course no big deal if you're just visiting the country for a couple of months. I just wanted to point out that mistakes in output may indeed show up as mistakes in input as well. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| mpete16 Diglot Groupie Germany Joined 5315 days ago 98 posts - 114 votes Speaks: Tagalog, English* Studies: German | Message 6 of 66 18 August 2010 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | ||
Good point there. That's definitely a problem with Sentence Mining. Exposure and native-speaking friends should be able to sort that out though. I guess everyone has "bad" habits that become *"fossilized". A lot of native English speakers (me included) say "you and me" or "me and you" instead of "you and I". In German, they say "wegen dem Hund" instead of the proper "wegen des Hundes". Besides, I think it's better to get into the habit of using the "common but wrong way of saying things". Languages evolve over time. If it didn't, we'd still be using "thou" and "thee". :) * Nice metaphor, Lucky Charms. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| The Real CZ Senior Member United States Joined 5442 days ago 1069 posts - 1495 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 7 of 66 18 August 2010 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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Now that I know for sure what the "Irish Method" is, I'll add something to this thread. I start off with sentence mining and input. When I first started languages, I tried doing the exercises in books and usually ended up being wrong and not knowing why, so I started focusing on input more. Then after that, start using output, and just so my mistakes don't become fossilized, I put the corrections made by native speakers into the SRS to help me remember the natural way to say what I wanted to say. It's like a combination of both, except waiting a little bit to use output.
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