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Retroflex R : Norwegian | ||
Tags: Norwegian | Pronunciation | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Skandinavisk & Nordisk |  | |
| Ukulele Lady Diglot Newbie England Joined 4942 days ago 5 posts - 5 votes Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Norwegian | Message 1 of 13 15 November 2010 at 6:03pm | IP Logged |
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Is the retroflex r used much in Norwegian and if so, is it used more in some regions than in others?
I never realised I used a retroflex r. I say faRm with a full-blooded r. It must be the Lincolnshire dialect. In standard English, farm is pronounced faHm and the r sound is practically non existent. Another unrelated thought. I keep reading that the sound of æ does not exist in English. This may be my rural dialect again, but words like bard and far have the same sound. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| davidwelsh Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5338 days ago 141 posts - 307 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, Norwegian, Esperanto, Swedish, Danish, French Studies: Polish, Sanskrit, Tibetan, Pali, Mandarin | Message 2 of 13 15 November 2010 at 8:36pm | IP Logged |
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The standard r-sounds in Norwegian are the rolled r or the French gutteral r (depending on the dialect). You do find retroflex rs in some Eastern dialects, but only in combination with other consonants (rl, rn and so forth).
Something close to the æ sound certainly does exist in some English dialects. As a Scot I find the Norwegian a quite close to the way I would pronounce the a in "art" and the æ quite close to the a in "apple". 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5262 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 3 of 13 15 November 2010 at 10:57pm | IP Logged |
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The retroflex R is common in most parts of Norway: Eastern Norway, Trøndelag, Nothern Norway.
I've been told that in those dialects that have the French/German like R, the retroflex R is never used. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Victor Berrjod Diglot Groupie Norway no.vvb.no/ Joined 4918 days ago 62 posts - 110 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese, Korean, Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 4 of 13 16 December 2010 at 4:16pm | IP Logged |
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You mean retroflex l (IPA: [ɭ])? The only retroflex r I know of is the approximant (IPA: [ɻ]). It's true that, in general, no Norwegian dialects that use the guttural r (IPA: /ʁ/). Some areas that contain a mix of the two might produce speakers using both retroflex consonants and guttural r's; e.g. your parents use /ʁ/, but people in your environment use retroflex consonants.
I can see why you would call it an "r" because of words like <bord>, which might be pronounced /buːɭ/ some places. As for [æ], it does, as pointed out above, exist in English. I've never heard it in <far> or <bard>, but it is indeed used in <apple>. The rhotic sounds are indeed usually called "rolling" and "guttural" r, but the "rolling" one is actually a tap (IPA: [ɾ]). The trill (IPA: [r]) is sometimes used to emphasize the phoneme, and I think it's still normal in some dialects. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Aquila123 Tetraglot Senior Member Norway mydeltapi.com Joined 5115 days ago 201 posts - 262 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Italian, Spanish Studies: Finnish, Russian | Message 5 of 13 17 December 2010 at 7:38pm | IP Logged |
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In most dialects the combination with r and certain consonants produce retroflex sounds
rt - retroflex unvoised stop rd - retroflex voised stop rn - retroflex nasal rl -retrofex lateral These may to a certain extend contrast with these combinations where the r and the other consonant are pronounced separately Then it is also a retroflex flap that has a certain similarity with English r but is pronounced harder with a distinct touch of the tongue at the postaleolar site and then thrown foreward. These sounds are generally not found in dialects wit an uvulat r. There is no retroflex r as such in most dialects. Edited by Aquila123 on 18 December 2010 at 4:56pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Victor Berrjod Diglot Groupie Norway no.vvb.no/ Joined 4918 days ago 62 posts - 110 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese, Korean, Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 6 of 13 18 December 2010 at 6:31am | IP Logged |
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Aquila123 lists most of them, but I think the complete list is this:
<rn> [ɳ] retroflex nasal <rt> [ʈ] retroflex voiceless stop <rd> [ɖ] retroflex voiced stop <rs> [ʂ] retroflex voiceless fricative <rl> [ɭ] retroflex lateral approximant I have never heard about a retroflex flap in Norwegian, and I can't really make out what sound you mean from the description. Do you have any sample words? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Aquila123 Tetraglot Senior Member Norway mydeltapi.com Joined 5115 days ago 201 posts - 262 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Italian, Spanish Studies: Finnish, Russian | Message 7 of 13 18 December 2010 at 4:04pm | IP Logged |
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The retroflex flap is by some language teachers concidered as vulgar and therefore ignored. (But most of these will still use it when they spesk)
It is written in several ways, often as l and rd. It is often also called "thick l". Examples: såle - sole måle - to measure hard - hard bli - become snål - strange, odd fæl - horrible maler - paints (with tune 1) maler - (with tune 2) painter støl . stiff and aching (afer hard physical work) pælme - throw away (a very casual/urban word) But the flap tends to contrast phonemically with normal l and rd. Other word with normal pronounciation of l and rd: maler .templetes smal - narrow palme - palm smil- smile falme - get pail salme - psalm salg - sale falk - falcon mord - murder (not retrofelx rd) støl (with normal l) means "a pasture up in the hills. There is however a great variation between spekers about the use of this sound(phoneme), however, in some words it is nearly obligatory in normal speach. Edited by Aquila123 on 18 December 2010 at 5:25pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Victor Berrjod Diglot Groupie Norway no.vvb.no/ Joined 4918 days ago 62 posts - 110 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese, Korean, Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Mandarin, Cantonese | Message 8 of 13 18 December 2010 at 4:13pm | IP Logged |
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Ah, yes! I get what you mean now.
I always thought that was the same as the retroflex lateral (as you can see in my wrong transcription of <bord> – it should be /buːɽ/), but I notice the difference when I imitate the dialects that use retroflexes. :) Then I think we have a complete list: <rn> [ɳ] retroflex nasal <rt> [ʈ] retroflex voiceless stop <rd> [ɖ] retroflex voiced stop <rs> [ʂ] retroflex voiceless fricative <rl> [ɭ] retroflex lateral approximant <l>, <rd> [ɽ] retroflex flap Is there anything else we should add to this? 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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