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Definition of fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Oasis88 Senior Member Australia Joined 5516 days ago 160 posts - 187 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Italian | Message 25 of 29 24 December 2010 at 2:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'd definitely agree with you on the merit of definitions and dictionaries. Let me offer an example to help illustrate my point. While I studied classics we had a few lectures on the different styles of Pompeian mural paintings. We'd look at different works and categorise them into the four "different" styles. After a while you'd begin to come across some that were not immediately obvious and then debate the topic by putting forward a case for placing it one category or the other. I began to question the point of this after a while and wanted to just appreciate each item for what it was, without having to label it. Of course, language fluency has nothing to do with Pompeian styles of mural painting but helps to clarify my point. With my previous post I only tried to express my concern for some things that might perhaps never be solved, defined or categorised; and of which any attempts to do so are potentially fruitless. To me, I suspect that the question of fluency may fit into this category (pun intended). 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| peppelanguage Triglot Groupie ItalyRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5675 days ago 90 posts - 94 votes Speaks: Italian*, Spanish, English Studies: French, Swedish | Message 26 of 29 27 December 2010 at 1:36am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Nice question, one that possibly will never have a definitive answer... II use to say I'm fluent in English and Spanish, but not in French... I've been studying English for 16years, French for 10 (but then stopped* 3 years ago) and Spanish for 5 (stopped last year) but I keep practicing both English and Spanish, not French unfortunately (I will re-start it possibly this year) Then..it's not because of HOW MUCH one studies...(at least..not for me) I use to say I'm fluent in English and Spanish because when I talk in English or Spanish people understand me...99.999999% of the time...Of course I'm not PERFECT in those languages...I'm not either in MY language (Italian) !!! So, speaking, it may happen that I don't understand something, or the other person talking to me doesn't understand me...but very rarily (that they don't understand me above all :)) ... When this happens, I say I'm proficient in that language. That's why I say I'm proficient in English and Spanish but not in French...I lost my practice...recovering it...I would go back to proficiency in French too...it's just a matter of practice, according to me. Greetings and Merry Xmas (even if late) and a Happy New Year! *stopped University/School studies...not "abandoned" the language
that's true....I don't like to talk of PROFICIENCY / perfection in a second languagem, since we have various systems to see at which level we are... I just answered the main question in my previous post (I'm not saying this only to clumsy...but to everybody, to avoid questions about "why do you think you're proficient?")
Another possible definition of proficiency (if one has to try define it) is: "When natives don't correct you"...that means, you're good enough not to disturb them, or "sound strange" or make them feel obligated to tell you "you're good!!! congratulations for your English!" (that probably means you're good, but have to improve a lot yet..) Edited by peppelanguage on 27 December 2010 at 2:01am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5037 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 27 of 29 29 December 2010 at 6:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||
As other have pointed out, dictionaries exist and these things have been discussed ad nauseam (I still have piles of olden threads to read when I have time), so lets focus on
When I was ~17 I went abroad two consecutive summers for a short period (~1 month) to study my first L2, in one of those exchange programs. That was when I realized I could manage myself entirely in a foreign language without other people helping me. I got lots of compliments from natives, but I was amazed at how much I still lacked (nowadays my most vivid memories of learning a language): I had to resort quite often to dictionaries, ask the meaning of words/expressions, etc. It was still a struggle, I had an 'obvious' accent, and I needed help from natives to follow a movie on TV. Crap, I had mastered the subject for years and it wasn't nearly enough when exposed to 'the real thing.' The following year I had improved a lot and I went abroad to an international congress on palynology. I met some wonderful people with whom I couldn't communicate because I was too advanced for them to keep up, and I was so excited (conceited, actually) that I didn't know how to get down to their level (I still regret that bitterly). I felt so advanced. Fortunately I met other advanced speakers (native or not I don't know, I only remember their thick Indian accents) who were not so nice but set me back into my place saying that my language skills were OK (just OK? no compliments? argh!). I kept improving, because at the time that was what I did when I felt I could do better. ~Two years later I was abducted from my university midterm tests to perform as an interpreter for two weeks for some teachers from my former high school, who were going abroad on another exchange program. Everything went well and the two teacher teams even exchanged jokes successfully for an entire evening, with me as the only translator. Still, when I had to translate a speech from one of my old teachers and dear friend, I had to stop him every three sentences or I'd lost track. Up to that point I had regarded what I had been doing as the very least one could expect form any good student (I considered myself a good student). Later on I resorted to my old teacher for help on how to teach my classmates at uni, and I finally assumed that proficiency deserving that name wasn't too far, after all. It would still be a few years to the present, and my views on everything (including languages, proficiency, etc.) and motivations went through some major changes, but that's another story and I'm not sure it shall also be told :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| ratis Hexaglot Newbie Germany Joined 4914 days ago 28 posts - 43 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Italian, Spanish, Latin Studies: Czech, Japanese Studies: Hindi | Message 29 of 29 30 December 2010 at 12:46am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I personally could live without labels, as long as I don't have to write job
applications, which I had to do a couple of times and I really hated the language skills part. Labelling my skills as basic or advanced proficiency was not an option. In German CVs you usually use either "Grundkenntnisse" (elementary knowledge), "fließend" (fluent) or "verhandlungssicher" (business fluent). I couldn't find myself in any of them. I estimated my vocabulary was around 20.000-25.000 words but at the same time I had hardly ever spoken English in my whole life so I felt anything but fluent. In the end, after a quick survey among friends, I put in 'fluent' and added a comment that this mainly referred to my passive skills. I thought that if the language skills were really that important, they would ask for details anyway. Thanks to the "disclaimer" I felt at least better about the prospect of a possible surprise interview in English. It's so good to have the CEFR now. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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