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TAC 2012 *jäŋe / *ledús - Kafea | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Kafea Groupie United States Joined 4732 days ago 78 posts - 98 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Smi | Message 17 of 40 10 January 2012 at 10:53am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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I have been working every day on Gulahalan. I have put boddu 1-10 from Swedish and Sami into my notebook with Saami, Swedish, English and Norwegian for all exercises and text.
Also I have completed Chung's exercises thus far and have learned that the main form of the noun changes for reasons as yet unknown to me. Also I have learned a bunch of verbs. When I see something I say the Saami word for it, often I know one, but my sentences are worse than a baby's. Really, if I tried to use it in a situation where I needed it, things would not go well. I need to work harder. Today I learned something interesting but I do not understand it to its full potential. Let me give you an example: Niillas lea _______________ olgun. Mu ___________ lea vielgat. Put the correct word onto the line. (beana, beatnaga, beatnagis, beatnagiin, beatnagii) I heard this or saw this before, and would take the root word I heard and look it up to understand the basic gyst of the conversation. Turns out I was sort of right! I might get it wrong but I can sort of follow along in a half-assed way. And in my searches I have come across more words to add to my personal dictionaries, which I am slowly working on as well. I mean to work on them every day this week. Unrelated to language learning, I found things to investigate in old records to find family history. More is being placed online so frequent searches bring fresh results. And it's a good thing because these blizzards aren't letting up any time soon. Time to put that cabin fever to good use. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6956 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 18 of 40 10 January 2012 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
The noun must change to show how it fits in the sentence. If these changes don't happen in Northern Saami, then the sentence would become ambiguous or incoherent unless regular changes to the sentence structure/word order were to occur. In English we normally don't change a noun's form other than to show number (e.g. "dog" vs. "dogs") or possession (e.g. "dog" vs. "dog's"). Otherwise we often know how the noun fits in the sentence thanks to word order. E.g. Beana lea ruovttus - "The dog is at home." Beatnaga oainnán - "I see the dog." ('it's the dog that I see') These changes to the noun in Northern Saami are often marked by adjusting the noun's structure either by changing the internal letters, adding suffixes or doing both changes. One of the ways you can change the internal letters is to apply consonant gradation (e.g. tn ~ n as in beatnaga ~ beana) as you will recall from the exercises.
beana is nominative singular (e.g. "dog" as a/the subject) beatnaga is genitive/accusative singular (e.g. "dog" as the possessor or direct object) beatnagis is locative singular (e.g. "dog" as part of the phrase "in a/the dog" or "from a/the dog") beatnagiin is comitative singular (e.g. "dog" as part of the phrase "with a/the dog") beatnagii is illative singular (e.g. "dog" as part of the phrase "(in)to a/the dog") IF I understand the sentences correctly then I'd use Niillas lea beana olgun. "Niila has a dog outside" ('Niila-on there-is dog outside') and Mu beana lea vielgat. "My dog is white".
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| Kafea Groupie United States Joined 4732 days ago 78 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Smi | Message 19 of 40 10 January 2012 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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The answer was, "Niillas lea beatnagiin olgun."
I suppose Niillas is with the dog outside. and "Mu beana lea vielgat." Yes, I need to keep working on this. I feel like I've got this intricate puzzle and I'm about to find key pieces. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5149 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 20 of 40 11 January 2012 at 11:48am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Have you ever visited your family in Sapmi? Do you know what the mutual intelligibility is between the various dialects?
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| Kafea Groupie United States Joined 4732 days ago 78 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Smi | Message 21 of 40 12 January 2012 at 10:30am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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No, I haven't been yet but I need to learn Swedish and Saami before we go.
Apparently the dialects/languages are not mutually understandable. South Saami change the word order and sound breathier. Inari sounds more Russian to me. The most speakers are North Saami, which is why I am learning it. They all use similar words that I can pick out, but maybe that is where the similarity ends. Chung would know better than I do from learning some Inari first and now North Saami. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5149 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 22 of 40 12 January 2012 at 11:55am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Are your family Northern Saami speakers? I guess it would be really annoying to learn Northern Saami and then find out that they only speak and understand South Saami!
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| Kafea Groupie United States Joined 4732 days ago 78 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Smi | Message 23 of 40 12 January 2012 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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The reason South Sami is dying out, is because so few are speaking it any more. There was a strong Norwegianization/assimilation policy for over a hundred years, and for a long time the language was forbidden (at least to children, but it was effective in stopping its use).
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6956 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 24 of 40 13 January 2012 at 6:09am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I hear my name... Representing the current scholarly view on mutual intelligibility in Saamic, here are linguist Pekka Sammallahti's comments:
N.B. Sammallahti makes things a bit murky by freely switching between "dialect" and "language" even though I admit that linguists can't agree on a consistent definition for these terms. He wrote this before the extinction of Akkala Saami († 2003) and so mentions 10 instead of 9 dialects/languages. For the layman, it's probably easier to think of there being 9 languages for as Sammallahti writes (and I've observed through my studies) we're dealing with a linguistic chain with mutual intelligibility strongest between speakers living next to each other (and obliquely lowest for those living at opposite ends of the chain). Southern Saami as compared to Northern Saami (to say nothing of Ter Saami spoken on the eastern end of the Kola Peninsula) shows quite a bit of divergence. Two differences are that Southern Saami is the only extant Saamic language that doesn't use consonant gradation and it distinguishes accusative from genitive which Northern Saami (and Inari Saami) have almost fully merged. (As an aside, Sammallahti divides Northern Saami into 4 groups (dialects or sub-dialects depending on your point of view) from west to east: Torne, West Finnmark, East Finnmark and Maritime. As in any other speech territory, there is variation in pronunciation and choice of vocabulary with East Finnmark and Maritime Northern Saami reminding me more of Inari Saami than the other two groups do. In general, Davvin teaches some kind of language that draws mainly on West Finnmark with some Torne, and this is what I'm introducing to you and Kafea in the primer. Even within these groups, you can break it down further. For example, Sammallahti analyzes Torne as encompassing Finnish Wedge (used in the northwestern "arm" of Finland), Karesuando, Jukkasjärvi, and Kaitum.) From my perspective, I understand but ultimately disagree with people today who treat Saamic as a collection of dialects and so imply near-identity or "sameness" throughout. For sociolinguistic or political purposes some Saami have come to use language as a marker of ethnicity, and with this thinking insinuate that we have one nation speaking one language (cf. Chinese who insist that they speak dialects rather than languages thus suggesting to the uninformed that a Shanghainese monoglot speaking his/her native Shanghainese would be fully understood by a Hong Konger who knows only Cantonese). Your comments made me revisit the stuff that I was using to learn Inari Saami this summer and I translated a bit of the simple stuff into Northern Saami to see how I'd fare. My sense is that they can differ from each other from as little as Slovak from Polish to as much as Slovak from Slovenian. Even though Inari Saami and Northern Saami are spoken natively on adjoining territories, they differ noticeably and linguists have divided Saamic languages into two broad groups: Eastern and Western. Inari Saami is Eastern whereas Northern Saami is western with some isoglosses leading to this distinction (e.g. -šk- in Eastern corresponds to -jh- in Western when the clusters have been hypothesized as being reflexes of the reconstructed ancestral cluster of *šjk). Here's my attempt to translate the monologue from the second chapter in a course in Inari Saami for children attending Ivalo Upper Secondary School. Kii mun lam? Mun lam Hendâ, kuálásteijee. Mun aasâm Anarist. Muu táálu lii Aanaarjäävri riddost. Must lii meiddei šiev käärbis. Mun kuálástâm jyehi peeivi. Ehdist mun puurâm kyele. Kyele mun pasam teikâ vuošâm. Muu kyeleh láá ain stuárráh. (Original in Inari Saami) Gii mun lean? Mun lean Hende, guollebivdi. Mun orun Anáris. Mu viessu lea Anárjávrri gáttis. Mus lea maid buorre fanas. Mun guolástan juohke beaivve. Eahkedis mun boran guoli. Guoli mun biđán dahje vuoššan. Mu guolit leat álo stuor'rát. (My attempt in Northern Saami) "Who am I? I am Henti, a fisherman. I live in Inari. My house is on Lake Inari's shore. I have a good boat. I fish every day. In the evening I eat fish. I fry or cook the fish. My fish are always big." N.B. I could have made my translation seem even closer to Inari Saami by using cognates even if their meanings may differ: - instead of guollebivdi use guolásteaddji (cf. Inari Saami kuálásteijee) - instead of orun use ásan (cf. Inari Saami aasâm) - instead of viessu use dállu (cf. Inari Saami táálu) - instead of buorre fanas use šiega garbes (cf. Inari Saami šiev käärbis - Northern Saami's šiega means something "good" more as in "proper" or "well-behaved", while garbes suggests a small boat rather than the somewhat larger boat as defined in fanas) - instead of biđán use basán (cf. Inari Saami pasam - Northern Saami's basán (< bassit) means "to bake, roast" instead of "to fry") - instead of álo use ain (cf. Inari Saami ain) When the content gets more complicated, the divergence becomes stronger and one can't honestly claim that knowing one Saamic language means that he/she can speak an adjacent one without putting any effort to learn it, regardless of feelings of ethnic solidarity. Here's how the Saami Parliament of Finland describes its role relative to linguistic viability in Northern Saami, Inari Saami and Skolt Saami (the last is also an eastern Saamic language and spoken on adjoining territory directly east of the native ranges of the other two languages). Sámedikkis sámegillii laktáseaddji áššiin vástida sámi giellaráđđi. Sámi giellaráđi lahtuid gaskkas sámediggi vállje ovddasteaddjiid maiddái sámi parlamentáralaš ráđi vuollásažžan doaibmi oktasaš giellalávdegoddái. Dasa lassin sámedikkis lea sámegiela doaimmahat, mii vástida ee. sámi giellaláhkii laktáseaddji jorgalusaid doaimmaheamis eiseválddiide, bargá sámegiela sajádaga buorideami buorrin ja oassálastá terminologiijaprošeavttaide. (Northern Saami) Sämikielân lohtâseijee aašijn Sämitiggeest västid säämi kielârääđi. Säämi kielârääđi koskâvuođâst väljee sämitigge ovdâsteijes meid säämi parlamentaarlâš rääđi vuálásâžžân tuáimee säämi kielâlävdikoodán. Lasseen sämitiggeest lii sämikielâ toimâttâh, mii västid ereslasseen säämi kielâlaahân lohtâseijee jurgâlusâi tooimâtmist virgeomâháid, parga sämikielâ sajattuv pyereedmân sehe uásálist sierâlágán terminologia projektáid. (Inari Saami) Sää´mtee´ğğest sää´mǩiõ´lle kuõskki aa´ššin va´sttad sää´m ǩiõllsuåvtõs. Sää´m ǩiõllsuåvtõõzz kõskkvuõđâst sää´mte´ğğ va´ll’jad võboršee´ǩǩes še sää´m parlamentaarlaž suåvtõõzz vuâlšen tuåimmi õhttsažtâ´vvjânnamlaž sää´m ǩiõll'luvddkådda. Lââ´ssen sää´mtee´ğğest lij sää´mǩiõll koontâr, kåå´tt va´sttad sää´m ǩiõll'läkka kuõskki joortõõzzi tuåimtumuužžâst ve´rǧǧnee´ǩǩid, tuõjjstââll sää´mǩiõl stattuuz pue´reem diõtt da vuässââtt jee´resnallšem ämmätsa´nnõõzzi projeektid. (Skolt Saami) The Sámi Language Council is in charge of Sámi language issues in the Sámi Parliament. The Sámi Parliament chooses its representative from amongst the Sámi Language Council for the Sámi Language Committee, which functions under the Sámi Parliamentary Council. In addition, the Sámi Language Office of the Sámi Parliament is, among other things, in charge of distributing translations related to the Sámi Language Act to the authorities, and working on improving the position of the Sámi language; it also participates in certain terminology projects. The Saami Parliament in Sweden also offers some content on its webpage in Saamic languages other than Northern Saami. Here's a comparison of its welcome message in Northern Saami, Lule Saami and Pite Saami. Buresboahtin Sámediggái Sámediggi lea sihke stáhtalaš eiseváldi ja álbmotválljen sámi parlameanta bargogohččosiin ahte bearráigeahččat sámi kultuvraáššiid Ruoŧas. (Northern Saami) Buorisboahtem Sámediggáj Sámedigge l goappátjagá álmmukválljim parlamännta ja stáhta fábmudahka. Sámedikke gájkbadjásasj viddno l sáme kultuvrraássjijt Svierigin gåhtset. (Lule Saami) Buerie båeteme Saemiedägkan Saemiedigkie lea gåabpatjahkh staaten byjjesfaamoe jih almetjh veeljeme paarlamente, mej gujmie edtja gyhtjelassh guhtsedh mah saemien kultuvren bijre, Sveerjesne leah. (Pite (Arjeplog) Saami) Welcome to the Sami Parliament The Sami Parliament is both a state agency and an elected Sami parliament, with the overall mission to monitor issues related to Sami culture in Sweden. (Translation from Swedish via Google Translate)
Southern Saami is indeed in rough shape but there are Saamic languages spoken natively by even fewer people. What I find interesting is that the website of the Saami Parliament in Norway comes in a version in Northern Saami but nothing available in any other Saamic language in comparison to the websites of the other Saami Parliaments which have some content in at least some of the Saamic languages used natively in those countries. As to people of Saamic ancestry learning a Saamic language as foreign language but that isn't ancestral, this isn't too surprising. I heard that a teacher of Inari Saami learned Inari Saami only after having mastered Northern Saami despite being of Inari Saami ancestry. Kafea's case reminds me of what I read a while ago about a young Southern Saami woman on pgs. 3-4 of this handout from the University of Wisconsin. The relevant excerpt is below.
N.B. Israelsson refers to her ancestral tongue as a dialect, and also suggests that Southern Saami and Ume Saami are the same. From what I've gathered, they are distinct. One noticeable difference is that Ume Saami uses consonant gradation while Southern Saami does not. By the way, Ume Saami is in very rough shape compared to Southern Saami as it counts roughly 20 native speakers while Southern Saami has around 500. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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