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Gary’s TAC 2013 - PAX | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5003 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 145 of 160 21 October 2013 at 11:01am | IP Logged | ||
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Greek
I've done 6 lessons of MT now. At some point during the fourth lesson, things suddenly started to click a bit more and I was remembering more. It's still quite hard going though and I'm certainly not remembering everything. I take back what I said about the structure being similar to Italian. At first it seemed that way, but as you get more into the verb system things get quite hairy. For example there doesn't seem to be an infinitive, so instead of "I want to do it" for example you say something like "I want that I do it". Which means you have to learn the subjunctive pretty early on. The future also uses the subjunctive with a particle. And from reading a bit about it, there's a whole bunch of stuff I've not touched yet, like various past forms and aspects. Definitely a whole rabbit hole of grammar waiting for me if I decide to pursue it further in future. At the moment though I'm not even sure if I'll have time to do the last two MT lessons. I might listen to them on the plane if I have to. French My Parisian friend Skyped me so I had my first French conversation in weeks. I felt a little rusty: I made a few pronunciation mistakes and a couple of times I didn't find the right words straight away, although at other times it all went smoothly. Nothing that a little exposure and practice wouldn't fix, probably. Italian The big focus recently. At the weekend I watched La finistra di fronte, finished reading Io non ho paura, and had quite a long Skype conversation about various subjects including post-war Italian history. And all the work seems to be paying off: I've seen a definite improvement in my level over the last few weeks, and the "non-basic" conversations are getting easier. I must be getting quite close to B2 now, and my two weeks in the country should give me another good push towards there. I also plan on loading up my Kindle with a few more books: Amazon has a decent selection of modern Italian authors. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4685 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 146 of 160 21 October 2013 at 11:34am | IP Logged | ||
This x 100! I used to love the beginning stages of learning. Now it's just a pain. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5003 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 147 of 160 23 October 2013 at 10:37am | IP Logged | ||
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This'll probably be my last update before my travels, as I'm leaving tomorrow. If all goes well I will have internet access in Italy, but I'm sure I'll have better things to do than go on the forum.
Points / loose ends: Greek - Just one more MT lesson to go. A bit more grammar - "I like" becomes "It pleases to me", just like in Italian and Spanish and Russian and who knows what else, and the imperfect has been introduced. If I find a bit of time I'll try and learn some of the second-person singular forms, since MT hasn't taught these yet and it always seems to use the formal/plural "you". Overall though, this just hasn't been anywhere near enough Greek to even get a decent foundation, and I'd need a lot more repetition even to consistently remember the basic verbs (to go, to do/make, to speak, to be, to have...). Of course as I said I was keen to start earlier but life's been too crazy for the last few months. Still, a tiny bit of knowledge is infinitely better than none, and from what I have now I might pick up a bit more while I'm there. Italian - I've been doing plenty speaking recently as I've met a few more Italians. Recently several people have complimented me on my Italian and particularly on my pronunciation, which is quite a big deal for me even if Italian is relatively easy to pronounce. After so many trips to France I still have a bit of a fear that I'll speak Italian and just be replied to in English, especially in the more touristy parts like Rome, but from most accounts I've heard that's not something to worry about. I'm still in two minds about French. I still want to get really good at it, for no other real reason than because a few years ago I decided I wanted to get really good at it and I've stuck to my goal. So it's like something I want to prove to myself, and even more so recently since in recent months I've felt like I was really starting to get there. Plus I could add in a bit of a cheesy self-improvement aspect and say that dealing with the French has made me grow a thicker skin, and I think there would be some truth to that. So I'm still hoping to be able to set aside a decent bit of time for it before the end of the year. And there are plenty more parts of France that I'd like to discover or get to know better, particularly the South. And I'm still hoping that my current mini-break from French is doing me good and I might come back to it with a healthier perspective. Anyway it's hard to plan exactly what I'll do in Italy. I keep meeting people who tell me about how good their towns are and how I should stop by there. My original plan was Rome, Florence, Bologna, Milan, but if I have time I'll add in Siena, perhaps somewhere else around Tuscany, Cremona, and maybe even Turin. People have also recommended places in the South like Sicily and Puglia, but that'll have to be for the next trip! Edited by garyb on 23 October 2013 at 10:40am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Kerrie Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Kerrie2 Joined 5191 days ago 1232 posts - 1740 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 148 of 160 23 October 2013 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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Bon voyage! :)
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4805 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 149 of 160 23 October 2013 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | ||
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Enjoy! Sounds like an awesome plan. Italy is surely worth more visits, the south is great
and very different from the north. And than you have the mountains and quite anything. No wonder so many Italians don't see much point in travelling or learning other languages:-D and they tend to be quite patriotic too. An awesome country. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5003 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 150 of 160 10 November 2013 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm back! Time to write a bit about my experiences, although I'll try not to make it toooo long...
Greece Just as I expected, the amount of Greek I learnt wasn't enough to do anything particularly functional, and I struggled to remember even a lot the basic stuff that I had covered because I just hadn't had enough exposure. Still, being able to greet and thank people was nice, and I could to say a few things to my Greek family members, who appreciated the effort although more in a "how cute, he knows how to say that!" way than a serious way. One evening my brother and I went out for a drink with our cousin and his friends, who mostly didn't speak much English, and that definitely gave us a bit of motivation. It was great getting back in touch with that side of my family and my culture after so long, and I've decided that I definitely want to study Greek more seriously. But Spanish is still on my agenda. As usual I have too much motivation and too little time. Italy Overall my linguistic experiences in Italy weren't too different to those in France - basically, some people are willing to help you and take you seriously, and some aren't. I had heard in a few places that Italians are very appreciative and supportive of people who make an effort with their language, but I didn't find that to be the case at all: either they just continue in Italian like it's normal, or they switch to English. The only compliments and encouragement I got were from people I had longer interactions with or from people who were trying to sell me something. I'm not complaining, I'd much rather just be taken seriously than be showered with compliments, but I'm just wanting to bust a myth here. On the subject of myths, long conversations between fellow train travellers also seems to be something that doesn't happen much outside of Assimil dialogues. Rome Things didn't start off well in Rome. My first task was to buy an Italian SIM card, and I dealt with an awful salesman. He tried to overcharge me by double and didn't believe that I qualified for their under-30s offer, but I had done my research and knew what I wanted and how much it cost, so I was able to stand my ground. We spoke Italian and it was all going smoothly, but after seeing my passport he then insisted on speaking English although his English was terrible and it just made things much more difficult. The next day, my mobile internet wasn't working so I went into another phone shop to ask about it. The salesman there was similar: he spoke Italian until he looked up my details and saw my country of origin, and he claimed I had to pay money to make it start working when all I needed was the APN settings. I told him in English that the tariff I had paid for already included internet, and he didn't understand me and he was about to go and get a colleague who spoke better English, then I just explained the same thing in Italian. No logic. He just told me to go back to the shop where I bought it. I really didn't want to deal with that first guy again, so I managed to get on wi-fi and look up the necessary settings. Surprise surprise, it all worked fine after that. I had thought that going into the shop and asking would be quicker and easier than having to look up the settings myself, but not with the unhelpful Romans. The following evening I went to a Couchsurfing meeting where I met one of the rudest people I've met in my life. She was criticising my personality and then my accent, and certainly not constructively, interrupting me mid-sentence to ask "why do you speak like that?!". She said my cadence sounded like the way people spoke a few hundred years ago, which doesn't help much as I have no idea how Italian was spoken a few hundred years ago, but still, at least it's a sign that I need to work on it so that's something useful even if her intention was clearly to upset me and hit where it hurts since I had clearly made a big effort to learn the language. I asked her a question and she ignored me, and when I asked again she gave me a dirty look and said "I'm listening to them", pointing to other people in the group. When she left, she said bye and nice to meet you to everyone but me. The other people there were all friendly though, although most weren't locals, and I had some good chats in Italian and English. There were a few Sicilian guys who were all really nice. I discussed the whole experience with a friend who told me that because Italian women get chatted up by guys almost constantly, they are often extremely rude to guys they don't know by default, even if like in my case the guy is just trying to be friendly and has no other intentions. Besides these, I found most people there a bit unfriendly and rude, although I think some of it is just part of the culture. I'm used to waiters and shopkeepers who're friendly and ask their customers how it's going and how the meal was, while in Rome they just do their job and that's it. I was also hoping to meet up with 10 or so different friends in Rome, but in the end I only saw two, so I felt alone a lot of the time. But both of them took me to some cool places and we had a great time together and spoke lots of Italian. The host in the apartment I stayed in was a Roman woman who was friendly and talkative, and she was happy to speak to me in Italian all the time even though her English was quite good. She often had friends and family over, so I got to chat with quite a few people. There was also a French couple staying there, so of course I used my French a bit with them. It mostly went well, but I was so focused on Italian that at times I couldn't remember basic words, for example it took me a few seconds to remember "été" (summer) because my brain kept saying "estate". Rome in general seemed to be full of French tourists. But both the host and the couple were busy so I didn't get to speak to them lots. She also recommended me a nearby restaurant, where the waiters and the customers all spoke thick Roman dialect and I struggled to understand. I knew I had found a good place. My waiter was actually very friendly, but in a very Roman "assertive" way as opposed to a British "nice and polite" way. Bologna My friend in Bologna convinced me to change plans and come up there for the weekend and party. It's the one place I had visited before, although this time round it was a lot busier since last time was in August when all the students are away. I love the city, it's very energetic and full of young people, and quite chaotic. I found a room at the last minute, which was an interesting experience in itself involving various messages and phone calls, and ended up staying with a friendly and interesting guy who was again happy to speak Italian all the time. My friend there is a girl I met here in Scotland where she lived for years before moving back to Italy, and we had always spoken English, but after realising that my Italian is much better now, we spoke that the whole time. She's not the most talkative person in English, but in Italian it's a whole other story! It was pretty cool and I felt that we got to know each other a lot better than we had done before, and we spoke for hours although it was mostly her doing the talking! I also managed an unplanned day trip to Venice after finding out that it's less than two hours by train from Bologna. I'm glad I saw it, as it lives up to the expectations. As soon as you walk out the station you see canals and bridge and boats. I got in touch with a friend in Scotland who's from near there and he sent me a list of things to see and do. Florence I don't know anybody in Florence, so I decided to stay in a hostel. I was a bit reluctant since it would mean speaking English with other travellers, but after my experience in Rome I realised that that is better than being alone and not speaking anything with anybody. As expected I met mostly Australians, but I also met a Spanish guy who spoke Italian (or more accurately, a sort of Italian/Spanish hybrid!) and the two of us chatted to the receptionist a lot. The experience with the receptionist was interesting: when I arrived I spoke Italian with her, once again right up until she saw my passport then she insisted on English. Then later on, I told her that I spoke Italian and she didn't believe me and thought I was joking ("ma mi prendi in giro?") and I had to prove that I actually did! Even though we had spoken it earlier. I found that on several occasions: often you just have to explicitly say the magic words "io parlo Italiano" before they'll take you seriously. It seems common that people don't truly believe that you speak Italian unless you actually tell them, even if you've already been speaking it with them. I was hoping to visit Siena nearby, and I managed to find a few other people who also wanted to, so we did a day trip together. I ended up being the group's spokesperson and I dealt with stuff like buying bus tickets and asking waiters questions. Later on we went to a sandwich shop in Florence where I ate the best sandwich of my life, which I of course ordered in Italian and asked for recommendations on their wide selection of meats. Overall I enjoyed Florence a lot and I wish I had spent more time there - there's so many cool things to see, great food to eat, and beautiful places nearby. It's a bit less touristy than Rome, and there's some good nightlife, like an underground jazz club that the receptionist took us to as well as a cocktail/shot bar that I was slightly less keen on but the Australians seemed to like. Also, while I said that Rome and most of the other places I went to were full of French tourists, Florence seemed to be particularly popular with the Spanish. Torino Another slightly last-minute trip - I went there because one of my Conversation Exchange friends offered to meet me and show me the city. We went to the cinema museum, walked round the city, and ate some nice food. It's a cool little city, again smaller and less touristy. I stayed in another apartment with a friendly woman. Milan I only went there for one night, and the infamous Torino-Milano train was late as usual, so I didn't get to see much of it. I stayed in a hostel, where the staff were mostly happy and even relieved to speak to me in Italian. I met another Scot, and we hung around in the hostel bar, which is also popular with locals, where we drank a bottle of wine and chatted to some girls who thankfully didn't have the same attitude as the Roman girl earlier. I got to use some Italian and even French, although none of them stayed around for long! Then a Brazilian guy convinced us to go to a nightclub with him. It was expensive and not great, but we met a few hostel staff and friends there and I heard and joined in some funny conversations in the toilet queue. At one point a guy came up to us and asked "avete la roba giusta?", which I suppose is a little more subtle than the "hey mate, you got any pills?" that we get over here. Again I was the spokesperson and dealt with the staff and taxi drivers. Generally I found the Milanese a bit reserved and cliquey yet quite friendly: they won't come and talk to you, but if you talk to them they're nice. The next morning I met another Conversation Exchange friend, who got up early to meet me for breakfast as it was the only time she was free. I was amazed at how many people were willing to make the time to meet me, show me their cities, or give me advice. We had a good Italian conversation and "una brioche e un cappuccio", which in Rome would have been called a "un cornetto e un cappuccino", and then I got my bus to the airport. I also noticed that a shopping bag is called "una busta" in Rome but "un sacchetto" in Milan, and a few other linguistic differences. Overall, apart from the problems in Rome, I had a wonderful time, met some great people and saw some beautiful places. Being surrounded by Italian and using it in many new contexts was helpful and made me more aware of my weak points. Like on previous trips to France, I found that I was able to converse for hours yet when I went into a shop I had no idea what to say and I got nervous. I got a better understanding of the subtleties of when a lot of phrases are used, particularly all the "want/need" type expressions like "ci vuole", "ti serve", "ci conviene", etc., and I realised that I still have lots of work to do! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5003 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 151 of 160 12 November 2013 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm having the usual post-trip experience: at home you think you're doing pretty well with the language, but then you go to the country and see the reality of your level. At home, even if you have people to speak with, the situations in which you use the language are very limited and the standards are mostly quite low as people aren't used to seeing a local try to speak their language. But as soon as you're in the country, all sorts of unfamiliar situations arise and the standards are higher. It can be a bit of a blow at first, but it's the best way to see where your weak points really lie and what you need to work on.
Weak point 1: Accent. Just like with French (and probably most languages other than English!), a decent accent is a requirement to being taken seriously by many native speakers, or at least, it makes being taken seriously much quicker and easier since it's generally the first impression that people get of your ability. I'm aware that my example of the girl at the Couchsurfing meeting was an extreme case of someone looking for a reason to upset me as opposed to giving constructive criticism, but like I said it's nonetheless a clear sign that my accent needs work, and there were several other points during my trip when I felt that a better accent would have stopped people from switching to English. Although of course that's just speculation and there could have been other factors like my confidence or of course my name and passport. Plans to improve: I got my French accent from bad to OK with various techniques that I've written about, so I don't see why I can't apply these to Italian too. However, since Italian accents are much less standardised than French ones, and the "standard" accent you hear on the news etc. isn't very natural, I think I'd need to choose one particular accent/person to imitate. That's something I'll need to think about. Maybe Luca - he's Roman but he speaks in quite a clear and standard way, his accent is "catchy" enough to imitate easily unlike the unmemorable news voices, and he has plenty recordings to make use of. Weak point 2: Words/expressions/scripts for everyday situations (going into shops, etc.). Plans to improve: The best way to work on this is definitely more time in the country, but in the absence of that, the first thing that comes to mind is TV shows that have a lot of everyday situations, like soap operas; I'd rather avoid these but maybe it's a necessary sacrifice. They're the two main ones; my general conversational ability is still nowhere near as high as I'd like, but improving that is just a case of keeping doing what I'm already doing. I'm also trying to find the motivation to start studying French again. I was planning to go to the language café last night but I was far too tired. I think just trying to speak it again with people should make that motivation come back fairly quickly. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5328 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 152 of 160 12 November 2013 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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Wow! That's quite a trip. I'm sorry to hear about the jerk at the Couchsurfing meeting. I've had excellent luck with French speakers in the past, but I do find it reassuring to have some "verbal self-defense skills." Something as simple as knowing how to say, "Um, wow. (awkward pause) How… polite," before walking away can be enough to salvage some dignity. :-)
But the rest of your trip sounds totally awesome, and I really envy you. Good luck with your newly-discovered weak points! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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