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How many words do we actually need? | ||
Tags: Number of words | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 105 of 115 01 February 2013 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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Let me just say that although I am the eternal bad boy in this endless debate, I do not believe that a small active vocabulary is better than a big one or that a learner's goal should be only the strict minimum to survive.
The main reason for my emphasis on the importance of mastering a relatively small number of active words is to highlight the role of grammar. I'm simply trying to shift the spot light away from just learning more words to learning how to use words well. To be honest, I think this whole question of vocabulary size is quite unimportant because you learn what you need to learn. I've never been given to counting words. The size of my vocabulary is of no interest to me. I just want to be able to understand what I am hearing or reading and to speak well when I have to. On the other hand I have always been struck by the fact that ordinary speech tends to be quite repetitive and rich in idiomatic language. Technical vocabulary adds a layer of complexity of course but the base is quite simple. When I go to technical conferences, I'm fully aware of the importance of precise terminology, but when I'm just chatting with other attendees, we speak like ordinary people. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| petteri Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4726 days ago 117 posts - 208 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: German, Spanish | Message 106 of 115 01 February 2013 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | ||
Now I can agree with you. Let's take five most common Spanish verbs: ser, estar, tener, hacer and poder. Just five words? When I compare any of those five words to a common and simple adjective like nuevo, any of those five verbs feels like 1000 nuevos. Some very common words just require huge learning effort. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5139 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 107 of 115 01 February 2013 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | ||
While one never "finishes" learning a language, I think this is an exaggeration. Extensive reading builds up knowledge of a language with relative efficacy, especially if you read for pleasure and not as a source of words to input into repetition software. It took me a lot less than a lifetime of reading to develop a reading proficiency that is at least as good as that of the average "educated" native speaker. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4459 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 108 of 115 01 February 2013 at 10:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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For alphabetic languages I think reading comprehension would be the simplest and quickest skill to develop. Native-level listening comprehension and especially speech are another story, or at least those seem to be pretty uncommon, anyway.
I assume by "mastery" Iversen was including things like spoken comprehension and production, not just reading ability. Edited by tastyonions on 01 February 2013 at 10:47pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5139 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 109 of 115 01 February 2013 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | ||
I will have to disagree with this too. As implied deliberately or not by s_allard throughout this thread, the spoken form is much more limited and makes more restricted use of a language than books, both in terms of vocabulary and syntax, representing in fact but a small sub-set of it. If you possess a large share of a language acquired from reading, recognizing it in speech is relatively trivial, since you'd be encountering little that is new. On the other hand going from everyday speech to literature or academics will confront greater complexity requiring a more conscientious effort not only at language learning, but at education proper. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4459 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 110 of 115 01 February 2013 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's not simple word by word recognition that is the hard part, but processing both the word-level meaning and the grammar when they are spoken at a normal native speed -- and I'm referring here not to sitting at home with an MP3 on repeat, but to actual conversation. A book just sits there and can be read and reread as you will until you grasp all of it, but ordinary people are less patient and most will not continually slow down and repeat themselves again and again until you understand, unless they have something really vital to tell you. I don't know how many times I've seen people write on this forum that they can read most texts fine, but that they have a lot of problems understanding conversations at ordinary native speed, or following movies and TV shows in their TL.
Of course, it's possible that your experience is simply different than that of other learners. Edited by tastyonions on 01 February 2013 at 11:36pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 111 of 115 01 February 2013 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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There is no doubt that extensive reading will give you great vocabulary and exposure to more complex forms that just listening to everyday spoken language. Who can be against reading?
But let's say that your primary interest is oral comprehension and production; you want to speak the language as proficiently as possible. What sort of learning material should you concentrate on. I say that you should concentrate on audio-visual material for the simple reason that you are combining the sounds of the language with visual context. For example, if you are interested in speaking Spanish for a trip to Mexico, instead of struggling through the ponderous tomes of Carlos Fuentes, I think you should watch a lot of Mexican television with subtitles and transcripts. Of course, nothing prevents you from doing both. If you only read Carlos Fuentes, you'll find yourself at a loss on the streets of" Mexico and when you see people being interviewed on television, you'll be saying 'what did they say?" On the other hand, if you are not interested in spoken Spanish, I would certainly recommend only reading the great authors and not bother watching television or listening to the radio. It all depends on what you want to do. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 112 of 115 02 February 2013 at 12:00am | IP Logged | ||
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We all know that the two hardest foreign language skills are the productive ones: writing and speaking. I certainly don't want to get into a debate about achieving native-like speaking proficiency at an adult age. But all I can say is that that the evidence has shown that while it is not impossible it is extremely rare.
If you move to the US and work with a professional accent correction or dialect specialist every day for six months, you could probably develop an American accent. This is what British actors do for US films. But the rest of us have to accept sounding like foreigners for the rest of our lives. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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