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How many words do we actually need? | ||
Tags: Number of words | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 41 of 115 29 January 2013 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'll drink to this. I basically agree that counting words is a waste of time. You learn what you need. The only reason we are discussing this is because there is a challenge out there to explain complex subjects with the 1000 most common words in English. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4743 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 42 of 115 29 January 2013 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
I try to pick up on recurring patterns in the languages I am learning in order to get a better return on investment. In French, as you said, verb pronominals are a big part, and if you get those down, it facilitates your hearing understanding immensely and opens up other areas. I would also say learning some key adverbial and noun phrases (French like those a lot than other languages instead of pure adverbs or specific words i.e "d'un air..., coup de..."), helps a lot. In German, it's the idiomatic uses of the major separable verbs and getting familiar with how some of the inseparable prefixes like "er", "be", and "ver" can nuance the verb (it confuses so many of us at first, sometimes still does, "raten vs erraten"... !!). In Portuguese, understanding the preterite/imperfect usage. And getting comfotable with the personal infinitive and when to use it is a HUGE boost to understanding. There are three specific situations where it is almost always used, and knowing it not only makes communicating easier, unlike Spanish where you have no choice, it allows you to avoid the subjunctive all together. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 43 of 115 29 January 2013 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
I agree totally. Now let's take this to a higher level and imagine that instead of learning more words we are learning grammatical or lexical constructs that allow us to communicate meaning. Obvious things would be prefixes, suffixes and maybe infixes where applicable. But also verbal forms as this poster has pointed out. I think for example that the heart of French and Spanish is the verb systems with their many complexities that are tricky to master. I suspect that since verb morphology is much less rich in English, there will be a greater need for more words. And this is the reason for such emphasis on learning more words in the English-speaking world. It's just an idea. It may not hold water. But the key idea here is that at some point we have to think horizontally, i.e. in terms of morpho-syntax and not so much in terms of accumulating more words. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4501 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 44 of 115 29 January 2013 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'd rather do it in German or Dutch, then I can just build like I want to ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5463 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 45 of 115 29 January 2013 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I keep hearing people talk about how many words you need for each level of language ability, but to be honest don't pay much attention to the numbers.
Yesterday, though, I bought a new book of German vocabulary. It contains a whopping 15,000 words which it states is the vocabulary needed for B1. I have seen many books overselling the level they can take you to, but surely this book is underselling itself. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 46 of 115 29 January 2013 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
Just to be sure I understand what underselling means, @splog, what do you mean? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Juаn Senior Member Colombia Joined 5139 days ago 727 posts - 1830 votes Speaks: Spanish* | Message 47 of 115 29 January 2013 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
With 15,000 words you'd be way beyond B1. If the book did teach that many words, it would be understating what level you'd be able to reach with it. Regarding the subject of the thread, vocabulary and syntax are the heart of a language. Pretending you can do by ignoring or downplaying either is the surest way of never reaching any proficiency in it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 48 of 115 29 January 2013 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks @juan for the clarification. I'm a bit surprised that a book should state that you need 15,000 words for B1. What do you need for C1, let alone C2? And let me reiterate that the original subject of the thread is a challenge to explain complex subjects with the 1000 most common words in English. But to come back to this question of how many words are needed for the CEFR levels, I should point out that there is no official fixed levels, just as there are no fixed grammar criteria, i.e. must know the future subjunctive for Spanish C2. Similarly there are no criteria for pronunciation. The whole idea of the CEFR model is based on the can do principle and not how much you know. You could certainly speak at the C2 level with 2000 active words in French, Spanish or English. Of course, you need more passive words and maybe many more to pass a test where you may be confronted with a wide range of material. So, in a sense you could say that a passive vocabulary of 15,000 words would equip you to deal with any possible text for a certain exam. I don't want to get into an argument over how many words one really needs for test purposes. I would certainly learn as many as I can. But the interesting thing about the challenge in the OP is the idea of communicating complicated subjects with simple words. In that sense, could one speak at a C1 level with a relatively limited vocabulary because one is able to use the given words so well? This is what is intriguing. By the same token, can we assume that the person who has learned 15,000 words of German can speak at the B1 level? Edited by s_allard on 29 January 2013 at 10:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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