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Why grammar does not help ( some of us) | ||
Tags: Language Teaching | Grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4516 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 17 of 59 02 September 2013 at 8:57am | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, they are important, and they especially help with writing properly I find. But
exposure really is necessary to make the stuff sink in. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5365 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 18 of 59 02 September 2013 at 9:15am | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't directly study grammar much in the initial stages of learning a language either, and if that makes me a freak, then I must put up my hands and plea "guilty" as well. I'm more of a fan of trying to work out the sense and structure of sentences for myself as I encounter them one by one in new and hopefully interesting dialogues. This can be a matter of playing grammar detective in parallel texts, noticing a repeating pattern in songs, or just trying out something in Russian and hearing the inevitable feedback that my stresses and endings were completely topsy-turvy (after probably being told a dozen times or so). :)
Maybe I should study grammar religiously from the beginning, but I just don't want to wrinkle my brow and work that hard whilst initially getting to know and love a language. For example, I picked up Wade's big black book of Russian grammar and tried to read through a few chapters a while back, and the experience nearly put me off studying grammar for life. It was way too hard and detailed for my needs, and I just couldn't apply all the rules and exceptions to anything tangible in real life. Similarly, I opted for some German lessons at Berlitz whilst I was living in Germany, and was force-fed the inevitable prepositional tables with one of my teachers, and coldly corrected if I dared get an ending wrong in conversation. This quickly sent me from fluent speaker to a paranoid grammar monitor that cowered in the loo rather than speak up in lessons. As soon as I let go of both the grammar (and that particular tutor), I was a million times happier, and was able to strike up enjoyable conversations in German once again. The thing is, I tend to remember that which is relevant to my own life and experiences in the target language, especially anything rich in context and plot. Dry grammar tables that haunt school children's Monday mornings, and "aus, bei, mit, nach, seit, von, zu" marching drills to the beat of a ruler, just don't have much appeal in my world. Don't get me wrong. I actually quite like understanding how things work and fast-tracking the rules of language with a good summary (I'm a graduate in linguistics for my sins after all). However I approach it at a different angle. Namely, I find a simple approachable grammar book, and skim through the key points or rules in each chapter (you'll notice the keyword here is "skimming") only when I'm ready and feel the desire or need to do so. It's at this stage, usually somewhere in the middle like tarvos said, and the grammar has had some time to grow in my mind as Bao mentioned, that I can really start to recall useful and interesting examples from experience to demonstrate these grammar rules in practice. Edited by Teango on 02 September 2013 at 9:18am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4342 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 19 of 59 02 September 2013 at 9:32am | IP Logged | |||||
I feel like I had this discussion two weeks ago, but I guess these sorts of conversations date back at regular intervals on the board from it's very beginning. As I said then I am learning German (including grammar) from reading/listening and without doing grammar exercises. The general consensus - putting it kindly - was that my approach was wrong. :) Solfrid: I am curious how your Super Challenge is going in Russian. Is your question related to the fact that you are finding Russian harder to learn than your other languages? If it's any consolation the German guy I rent from learnt Russian to a high level from conversation etc. He told me not to worry about grammar exercises (he hated them) and just speak/read etc. I guess for some people that works. Edited by patrickwilken on 02 September 2013 at 9:47am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tibbles Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5000 days ago 245 posts - 421 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Korean | Message 20 of 59 02 September 2013 at 9:39am | IP Logged | |||||
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Here's a question: has anyone learned Korean without studying its grammar? I think this is a case where study of the grammar is essential. It would take thousands (if not tens of thousands) of cases of trial and error for a grammar-averse learner to deduce the correct patterns. Sure, babies in Korea may learn it that way, but they are surrounded by family who are constantly reinforcing correct speech. L2 learners of Korean won't have the luxury of that situation and will learn faster by gradually picking up the grammar.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| sans-serif Tetraglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4368 days ago 298 posts - 470 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Danish | Message 21 of 59 02 September 2013 at 9:41am | IP Logged | |||||
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I like to learn grammar right from the beginning, not so much through drills and exercises but rather just familiarize myself with the rules and tables until I "know 'em when I see 'em". I then reinforce this knowledge by observing the rules in action, and with enough exposure this knowledge turns into a more intuitive "grammar instinct". Once I no longer feel like I'm fumbling in the dark, I'll start practicing output and putting things together.
The funny thing is, despite all that preparation and the (mostly) silent period, I learn to speak and write just like Cristina: by making mistakes and being corrected. The only caveat is that I do a lot of the correcting myself, at least the simple stuff. :-) Edited by sans-serif on 02 September 2013 at 9:45am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Mooby Senior Member Scotland Joined 5914 days ago 707 posts - 1219 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Polish | Message 22 of 59 02 September 2013 at 9:44am | IP Logged | |||||
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As Bao posted, my understanding of grammar comes layer by layer through repeated exposures.
After the first introduction to a piece of grammar, I might forget 95% of it. But with each subsequent exposure I retain more. If I panic and drill that one piece of grammar to death, I just end up with 'grammar-indigestion' and learn virtually nothing. It's better to move on to something else and give the brain a break, before returning for a second exposure, a third exposure etc. Each exposure cements comprehension. By 'exposure', I mean a combination of targeted grammar study, drilling and then attentive reading / listening to spot grammar functions in use. And ultimately to activate all this amassed understanding through speech (and writing). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6512 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 23 of 59 02 September 2013 at 11:38am | IP Logged | |||||
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As Patrickwilken writes, this is not the first time we have had this discussion, and the arguments are roughly the same. Solfrid's Russian teachers are apparently infatuated with grammar rules and exercises and less so with speaking. You could also put me into this category, except for one minor difference: I'm constantly trying to see patterns in grammar (and maybe those Russian grammar buffs claim the same), and I try to set up these patterns in a way that makes it possible to refer back to them in a flash, rather than learning them as verbally formulated rules - even if this means that I have to leave some details aside. Grammar is there to give you fast and reliable information about things that work and things that don't work, but if you aren't allowed to try out your new language then even the concept of 'working' has been sabotaged.
Besides I work with genuine texts almost from the beginning instead of doing silly drills on boring sentences in a boring textbook, but unlike some learners here I do this while using my grammars and my green sheets. Paradoxically the constant process of referral to grammar sources presupposes that you first have got a bird's eye view of the things you have to learn along the way, but the idea that you must have learnt all parts of grammar to perfection before you can be allowed to get your hands wet in real stuff is patently wrong. Edited by Iversen on 03 September 2013 at 12:04pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5143 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 24 of 59 02 September 2013 at 11:53am | IP Logged | |||||
Due to some unforeseen circumstances I have had a long break from Russian studies this year, and did not start again until last month. So I am not exactly doing brilliantly at the Super challenge :-) And yes, I find Russian a lot harder than my other languages. Language learning for me has traditionally been like a leisurely swim. Russian is more like rushing head on against a brick wall, and occasionally passing out at the foot of the wall. When I then wake up again, I spit out blood and teeth and return to rushing head on against the wall. Repeatedly. Who needs "50 shades of grey" when you have Russian? Any masochist feelings I might have are completely fulfilled studying this language. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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