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Clugston challenges polyglots to debate | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5239 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 65 of 132 30 September 2013 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
In his video, Clugston tries to show, quite rightly but in a rather awkward way, that the linguistic system of L1 tends to interfere with the learner's perception and production of L2. In his French example, he claims that speakers of English would be more likely to (incorrectly) use the preposition "pour" (for) in J'échange mon vin pour une bière rather than the correct "contre" (against) as in J'échange mon vin contre une bière. "Pour" is a more direct translation of the English "for" as in I'll exchange my wine for a beer. By the same token, English-speakers tend to shy away from the proper "contre" because the translation "against" does not fit the English pattern. The problem here is that Clugston should have chosen a better example of which there are plenty. In this particular case, J'échange mon vin pour une bière is perfectly correct French. In fact, one can use "pour" or "contre." Here are the first lines of the definition of the verb échanger in the online Littré dictionary: "Donner et recevoir par échange. Échanger une chose pour une autre. "Ils échangent le sacrifice pour de l'argent", [Pascal, Prov. 6] "Sans simonie, on put contre un bien temporel Hardiment échanger un bien spirituel", [Boileau, Sat. XI] "L'on peut sans effort Échanger la tiare avec un diadème", [Guiraud, Machab. II, 6] "Mansfeld eût échangé sans un destin fatal Le casque du guerrier contre un bandeau royal", [Constant, Walst. IV, 6]" As one can see, the prepositions pour, contre and avec can be used with the verb échanger. Clugston's general idea is not wrong. It's a basic fact of language learning in adults that L1 will influence L2 to some degree. A much better example that Clugston could have used is the English-speaker saying J'attends pour un ami (I'm waiting for a friend). In French that "pour" is totally unnecessary and comes from the direct translation of "waiting for," Edited by s_allard on 30 September 2013 at 5:42pm 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Retinend Triglot Senior Member SpainRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4117 days ago 283 posts - 557 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Arabic (Written), French | Message 66 of 132 30 September 2013 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks, emk. I read an introduction to second language acquisition and the editor concluded
the book by saying that, essentially, the field had well-informed answers to this problem of accent or this problem of grammar, but no single body of theoretical knowledge. Metaphors used by specialists could be as diverse as "building scaffolding" or "focusing a camera" when describing the process of learning this or that element. That's how it should be too. People who have the full design specs for a motorcycle can eventually find out what's wrong with the motorcycle when it's not working effectively, but there's no full design spec for how human beings work. Especially not for how language works. We just work with it and get results, then extrapolate. And we explain our notions about it with metaphors. Arguelles says that it's like peeling an onion, layer by layer, and some experts say it's like scaffolding. There's a lot of knowledge in the field about why learners make mistakes, and how long it takes to learn, but it's odd to me that the book never covered how fast it's possible to learn a language. It always stuck to cagey estimates of the amount of time person x took to reach level y of language proficiency. If I might speculate wildly, I imagine that the great minds of applied linguistics always try to reach the issue of second language acquisition with the classroom setting as their primary image of the process. And with a classroom you can never "fly with the fastest." It seems to me like a field which closely serves the industry rather than a field designed at studying what's effective. Happy to be corrected, as I have only read one introduction to the subject. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4474 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 67 of 132 30 September 2013 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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One example of English-French interference I see soooo often is "chercher pour [qqch]." Or "actuellement" for "actually" (this morning I spoke with a French person who made the opposite mistake, saying "actually" when he meant "currently"). Edited by tastyonions on 30 September 2013 at 3:44pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5239 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 68 of 132 30 September 2013 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Just as a quick comment to @emk's insightful post about academic writings on foreign language learning and acquisition, I would like to point out that there is very little work, if any at all, on independent learning or self-study. This is understandable because field of Second Language Acquisition is centered on the formal teaching of languages. To my knowledge there has never been any serious scientific studies of the effectiveness of any of the commercial self-study offerings. The independent learning community is pretty much seen as a collection of well-intentioned amateurs who have nothing better to do. Edited by s_allard on 30 September 2013 at 4:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5239 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 70 of 132 30 September 2013 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Since I haven't had the time nor the courage to wade through all of Clugstone's videos, I'll ask users here. Does anyone know what degree in linguistics (a master's I believe) does this individual possess and from what institution?
My other question is: Are there videos of this individual speaking French, Spanish or Thai, especially in a conversational setting? All I've heard so far have been little individual phrases in Spanish and French that I have found quite difficult to understand. I bring up this latter point because, in spite of all our differences of opinion about various things, the polyglots like Steve Kaufman, Moses and Benny that Clugstone denigrates continuously have put their accomplishments out there for everybody to see and judge. That to me is the proof of the pudding. Edited by s_allard on 30 September 2013 at 7:02pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| futurianus Senior Member Korea, South starlightonclou Joined 4818 days ago 125 posts - 234 votes Speaks: Korean* | Message 71 of 132 30 September 2013 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Emk, you seem to have done quite a comprehensive research on the subject.
Your categorization of the whole field was quite neat and your links also made an interesting and profitable reading. I found FSI's paper prepared by Frederick H. Jackson & Marsha A. Kaplan particularly illuminating. I could not help noticing how FSI was handling the same issue of its sometimes conflictual relationship with the researchers in applied linguistics. It offers its 'experience' to the researchers as could be providing 'useful perspective', and confirms its need to receive 'new insights' from them.
Erenko, thanks for your comment. I hope you will find the quote below interesting.
Edited by futurianus on 05 October 2013 at 9:29pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fuenf_Katzen Diglot Senior Member United States notjustajd.wordpress Joined 4178 days ago 337 posts - 476 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Polish, Ukrainian, Afrikaans | Message 72 of 132 30 September 2013 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Not knowing what Mr. Clugston's actual credentials are, and not having time to look through all of his videos to try and find it, I can't give his arguments much greater weight than I ordinarily would. That's not to say I disagree, although a lot of it has come down to the age-old debate of when somebody is fluent/functional in a language. For example, after I watched his "shoelaces" video, I did go and try to think of how I would tell somebody to do activities such as unlock a car door, tie shoes, etc. I don't necessarily disagree that every native speaker would have some ability to do this, and that if you can't, you're not at native level fluency, or even near-native fluency. Are you really not functional though? I'm not sure I agree, and I don't know that he really presented an argument for why you couldn't still be at a very useful level in the language.
As for his arguments on the proper way to learn a language and become functional in it, again, it's not that I disagree, but I know what has worked for me, and where my skills need work. That doesn't necessarily coincide with research findings. However, he seems to be very hesitant to discuss specific points or even cite articles, so I'm really not sure which studies he's referring to in his videos. I suppose I really don't understand the attack on Benny/Kaufmann/Moses. Really the only one who I think has tried a more "academic" approach to explaining language learning is Steve, and it's still pretty clear that generally referring to his own experiences. Maybe I haven't watched enough videos for a long enough time to understand where this threat of "polyglots pretending to be linguists" is coming from. 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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