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Team "Deuxième". French team thread. | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Cristianoo Triglot Senior Member Brazil https://projetopoligRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3919 days ago 175 posts - 289 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, FrenchB2, English Studies: Russian | Message 137 of 232 23 February 2014 at 7:50am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks Stelle!
If you don't mind I would like to ask you another question. In a "practice" way of thinking, what is the best way to decide which pronoum objet or pronoum adverbial should I use in a sentence? Or this is something I will learn just by practicing? Another thing, about the sentence posted by kanewai above: Je lui l'ai prêtée (with both pronouns COI and COD). It is correct? I shall put a '+e' in this case? I think so, but I would like to be sure about it. Thanks in advance, once more. Edited by Cristianoo on 23 February 2014 at 7:51am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5179 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 138 of 232 24 February 2014 at 2:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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As Stelle said, the rule is that the participe passé agrees with the direct object (whether a noun or a pronoun), but
only if the object precedes the verb. Yes, it's odd and tricky. The average native speaker gets this wrong at least occasionally in writing, and orally, most of the time (when the feminine form sounds different, anyway). The order of the pronouns is also tricky. In the sentence you guys were discussing, the order is as follows: Je le lui ai prêté. Je la lui ai prêtée. Je les lui ai prêté(e)s. To see the order in which all pronouns come, read this page. I suggest you equip yourself with a few sentences containing multiple pronouns. Once you've learned these by heart, they will be your reference should you find yourself unsure of what to do. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 3942 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 139 of 232 24 February 2014 at 2:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Christianoo, ask away, and I'll answer if I can! :)
Hmmm…I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Do you mean how do you know what to say when? As with anything, it's just a question of practice and - even more importantly - exposure.
No, this sentence is incorrect - both with regards to word order and with regards to the "+e". The order for double object pronouns can be a bit tricky. If a sentence includes "lui" or "leur", the direct object pronoun goes first; otherwise the indirect object pronoun goes first. So…sticking with "le livre" as our direct object… I lent it to you. -> Je te l'ai prêté. I lent it to her. -> Je le lui ai prêté. Do you notice that the word order is different in each of those examples? Je te (indirect object) l' (direct object) ai prêté. Je le (direct object) lui (indirect object) ai prêté. This is also true in the plural: I lent it to you. -> Je vous l'ai prêté. (indirect object, direct object) I lent it to her. -> Je le leur ai prêté. (direct object, indirect object) Please note that the past participle (prêté) never agrees with the indirect object. Jamais! For your example to be correct, the +e would have to refer to a feminine direct object. For example… I lent her my car. I lent it to her. Je lui ai prêté ma voiture. Je la lui ai prêtée. The +e has to do with the direct objet "la voiture", not with the indirect object "her". It would be written exactly the same if the indirect object were a man: I lent it to him. Je la lui ai prêtée. Clear as mud? (To my fellow godparent - PLEASE correct me if I've made any errors in my explanation! It's late and my brain is fuzzy.) Edited because I wrote "direct" when I meant "indirect" and "indirect" when I meant "direct". Bah! Sorry! Edited by Stelle on 25 February 2014 at 11:29am 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 3942 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 140 of 232 24 February 2014 at 2:30am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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And I see that Arekkusu wrote a very clear and succinct answer while I was busy typing away in my usual overly-
wordy fashion! Haha! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5179 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 141 of 232 24 February 2014 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Another note, to take you guys a bit further --
When the passé composé uses être (such as with pronominal verbs), it's sometimes said that the participe passé agrees with the subject, but in reality, it too agrees with any preceding direct object pronoun. See the following examples: elle s'est lavée (dir. obj. is se) elle s'est lavé les cheveux (dir. obj. is les cheveux) elle se les est lavés (dir. obj. is les) With intransitive verbs (like tomber), there can be no direct object, so the agreement indeed occurs with the subject (eg. elle est tombée). 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 songlines Pro Member Canada flickr.com/photos/cp Joined 5007 days ago 729 posts - 1056 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French Personal Language Map | Message 142 of 232 24 February 2014 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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(Sorry, I haven't been posting, but have been managing to hang in there with my French; though the
above little bit with the pronouns is rather above my current level, alas.) But popping in to ask what Deuxièmistes would like to try for a March group activity. - There seemed to have been some interest in songs earlier - should we go with that? Or...? (Arekkusu and Stelle , thanks for your help; you're both welcome to weigh in with your preferences on the group activity if you wish, of course!) Edited by songlines on 24 February 2014 at 10:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| rlnv Senior Member United States Joined 3749 days ago 126 posts - 233 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 143 of 232 25 February 2014 at 7:31am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Great timing on the explanations Stelle and Arekkusu. The lesson that I was working through in Fluenz today covered the passé composé subject agreement. Learning that there is also agreement with the object helps further what I was working on today. Thanks!
songlines, I'm game for working on songs if that's what others want to do. Edited by rlnv on 25 February 2014 at 7:32am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5274 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 144 of 232 25 February 2014 at 8:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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This 'might' help anyone struggling with direct objects, ind. obj's and the order of them... and just so ppl aren't
being 'ripped off' my source is Hugo French in 3 Months by Ronald Overy and Jacqueline Lecanuet, Dorling Kindersley Ltd 2003. Note that I have added my own little system of rules (not Hugo's)- their examples (this is one of my flashcards) In sentences such as 'he gave it to him' or 'I'm sending them to you' French uses a different word order from English. ---------------------------------- 1. When only one "L" is present "L" stays closest to the verb, both before the verb: eg Paul gives it to me Paul me le donne Nicole sells it to us Nicole nous la vend I'll send them to you Je vous les enverrai Don't show it to me Ne me le montre pas --------------------- ...and after the verb: eg Give it to me! Donne-le moi ! Send it to us! Envoyez-la nous ! ---------------------------------- 2. When two "L"s are present, "lui" or "leur" always comes last, both before the verb: eg We have already shown it to him Nous le lui avons déjà montré Did you give it to them? Vous la leur avez donnée ? I didn't sell them to him {or to her} Je ne les lui ai pas vendus Don't give it to them Ne la leur donnez pas --------------------- ...and after the verb: eg Sell them to them Vendez-les leur Send it to him {or her} Envoie-le lui ---------------------------------- Hope that helps! Pm Edited by PeterMollenburg on 25 February 2014 at 8:36am 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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