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How to bring up English from B2 to C1 ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5165 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 57 of 66 20 September 2014 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yes I did. What I don't like about SRS as well is the chore aspect, repetitions being scheduled and such. I can only use Memrise, for instance, at home, so it limits the time I have and I better use it for Chinese which needs it more. I do admit Chinese goes better because I pay greater attention to SRS, it is a higher quality time. I believe what helps me learning is the contrastive sentences analysis. SRS allows for that, and so does intensive reading, with the advantage that I don't need to keep on reviewing sentences, which I don't like, but I still manage to review words and expressions as they go and get repeated often, plus I keep myself interested in the story. The problem is implementing it. I need to do no more than 1 page a day when the language is still hard, and that would roughly correspond to an intermediate Assimil lesson if there was any, and I need to do it focused, without worrying about raising my figures for the SC. It may be possible to use extensive reading for opaque languages but it may also be counterproductive. I'm not saying this out of a rant. I've been using this technique for Georgian and Norwegian as my only technique since about November 2013 and I didn't see much progress. I logged about 800 pages for Norwegian and 300 for Georgian. My Norwegian was B1 as I started that technique and my Georgian still A2, and so they remained. I believe if I had read 100 Norwegian pages and 40 Georgian pages extensively, which is way less than page a work day, I wouldbe progressing much faster. Did I use novels I was at least culturally familiar with for Georgian? I did, I used translated novels. It was just that the sentences were still too alien for me to read then interparsed, one by one, and still read enough on the story for it to be interesting (and besides, I was worried about the SC scores). So, after I had run out of textbooks, I should have started 'cheating' through the texts, analyzing 1 paragraph after each, be sure I internalize the meaning so I can think of myself actually using the same words later and improve the daily dosis as I noticed progress. What I did instead was reading fast through the Georgian and then through the original language, and this didn't represent any improvement in my textual perception competencies. In the case of Norwegian, my ceasing of using textbooks and thus any sort of intensive reading represented a stagnation in an ascending curve. I also didn't make much improved in listening either, because I was using subtitles and reading the subtitles. At least I was intensively reading subtitles, but at one point progress ceased to happen. So, if I have to wait till I know 98% of the words on a random, contemporary novel text in Georgian until I start reading extensively, then the extensively reading technique is not for me, at least not at this stage. Since we're speaking of an opaque language, I can say that extensive reading is only marginal, for me, when it comes to reaching basic reading fluency. This approach of quantity over quality may work for Western European languages because you study a little and soon reach C1 reading, so, by reading massively you improve your C1 reading skill and get the necessary repetition and exposure to internalize and activate the other skills, which are probably B1. (I agree with Serpent at this point, you don't need to train 'speaking' to be able to use the new words you learned, you can improve your active vocabulary by reading, too). I'm aware that it's the way to go with a nearly-transparent language. If I started Italian today, I would start reading extensively ASAP, even if I'd do a lot of Assimils and business courses and such. This is also why I made native resources my main resources for German after only 4 months of resuming from A2, even if I consider I'm still reading somewhat intensively. On the other hand, at one point where I only miss two to three words in French in each page, I think it is a 'sacrifice' that is worth it to look these words up at wordreference and learn them in that and at other contexts in a way that I can actually incorporate them in my passive vocabulary, at least passively. Otherwise, I keep seeing words over and over again which I still can't define, thanks to extensive reading only. And this takes over a year, I can speak for myself. So, what will I do for my next language, Estonian, when I start using native materials? I will keep reading stuff intensively, and when I reach 98% compreension, I will keep reading intensively as well, it's just that the interruptions will happen seldom and will be worth doing. I will try to restrict 'not looking words up' when I am on the bus, waiting for an appointment with the doctor, in a bank etc. when I don't have access to the internet. That is how I learn the most, that is how I become conscious of what another language and another culture is bringing to me as a different concept for the world. Edited by Expugnator on 20 September 2014 at 5:24pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Enrico Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 3744 days ago 162 posts - 207 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Italian, Spanish, French | Message 58 of 66 20 September 2014 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Does anybody see any sense to make Anki cards from TV series phrases or maybe parallel texts? Parallel texts seem
not so boring, something like Assimil from TV series :-) Or it will be better just go to a next episode/season/series and do not mind about it, hoping to meet all the words again in the future? What do you think? Edited by Enrico on 20 September 2014 at 6:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 59 of 66 20 September 2014 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That's way too early to assess progress in extensive reading. I keep repeating that a comparison of a small number of pages extensively and intensively will make intensive reading the winner, hands down. But lots of extensive reading, that's a different story. To get surely noticeable results, you should aim for a few thousand pages. The learning curve may be different for each of us but 3000-5000 can't not work. You don't need to wait until 99% comprehension to read extensively, that is nonsense, in my opinion. There is only one rule I can think of. The less you understand the text, the more motivation you need to keep going. I read HP5 in English with 50% or so comprehension or even less. I could follow the plot, I improved my English and I was excited to know what happened half a year before the translation came out. Really, you may want to strive for 75-85% comprehension or whatever to start reading extensively but you don't need to. So, do as you prefer but I think some of your issues with extensive reading come from wrong expectations and approach. Enrico, do as you wish. I personally find it good to sometimes stop the video and repeat a sentence I like a few times and continue. But if you find sentence cards in anki beneficial to your learning style, the tv series are an excellent source. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6596 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 60 of 66 20 September 2014 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
@Enrico, sure, SRS is a great idea. Just make sure you don't spend more time SRS'ing than actually having input. Also, have a look at subs2srs.
This brings us to Prof Argüelles' "known unknowns", which is where my term for the opposite concept comes from. As far as I understand, he generally looks up words when he already remembers their form and may even have some guesses about the meaning. Also, both here and with regards to 80% coverage, he was speaking about readers that get progressively difficult. So that's some built-in SRS. I personally take it even further, and generally only look up words when I'm about to use them. Oh and I think one point of "cheating" is that you decide how much you cheat. That's the spirit. Your cheating shouldn't be as diligent as possible, otherwise it's just the same old stuff. Employ different methods of cheating. Combine them. Fool around. If you couldn't care less, don't look it up. Have fun. Otherwise it will be as much of a chore as SRS. It's not inherently a chore, that's up to you. Edited by Serpent on 20 September 2014 at 10:52pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5165 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 61 of 66 21 September 2014 at 12:54am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That's my point. With opaque languages, even extensive reading is slow (at least that is the case with me). It takes me half an hour to read 5 pages in Georgian and I retain very little from that (I read first in Georgian then in translation). Had I read 1 page intensively instead, I'm sure I'd have learned much more. But that's me, anyway.
I've been using for Georgian texts I was really interested in reading. Actually what annoyed me was the opaque lamguage that hindered comprehension.
Once again, most of the discussed techniques comprise not only western European languages but also a scenario where you have graded readers for each level. No such thing for Georgian. You have textbooks that discuss grammar exhaustively and introduce texts from classical literature that are actually the top of the difficult ladder.
Once again I use Georgian, but this is valid for most languages out of the top 10 most learned. It is not that easy to find 'fun' stuff, and even so, the difficulty of the language hinders much of the fun. So, I should keep studying, but how so when there aren't that many textbooks and they won't take you that far? Don't get me wrong, the reason I'm insisting on this is to make sure I won't repeat those mistakes (for me) in other languages like Estonian. Maybe people with a similar learning style will come to the same conclusions. I'm debating calmly and friendly, I'm only mad at myself hehe. Thank you Cavesa and Serpent for the help. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 62 of 66 21 September 2014 at 1:17am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I hope I didn't lead you to believe this discussion is anything different from calm and friendly...
Georgian is surely a tought one to crack, much tougher than my languages (even though you could say English was pretty opaque for a Czech native). If I were you, I would probably look for translations of the very popular books, like Harry Potter. Such things are surely less difficult than classics however you may have limited access to any books outside of Georgia. But if you find those, you could make a bilingual reader just by reading the translation side by side with an English or Portuguese version of the book. That should save you some dictionary searching and grammar head scratching. Edited by Cavesa on 21 September 2014 at 1:18am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5129 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 63 of 66 21 September 2014 at 1:53am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
This was the biggest problem for me when I was studying Georgian a couple years back. Once you finish the couple of beginner courses available, it's very hard to find anything that I would consider enjoyable. Well, music was plentiful and I could enjoy that, but literature and even movies were difficult to find. And the movies I did find tended to be quite depressing. R. == 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5165 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 64 of 66 22 September 2014 at 1:47am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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The situation has improved a bit, hrhenry, though I believe that either you overlearn
what you got or you go through as many beginner textbooks as possible. Some books which have been published in the past years present grammar in a more communicative way. Besides, there is the comprehensive monolingual course from ice.ge . I know someone who translated most of the lessons into English. To Cavesa: I know, I just didn't want you to think that I was just ranting. I do appreciate the discussion and I'm looking for answers, and to this I'm asking not only the others but also myself. I've tried books that are both easy and interesting for Georgian, just didn't try books I'm familiarized with the story. There is quite a lot of ebooks available cheaply in Georgian. Right now, i'd like to read stuff like The Hunger Games, Percy Jackson, Dan Brown's books. I also recommend these for the OP who wants to bring his English further. I do believe that in order to parallel reading to be interesting and comfortable a % is required, that may be 70%, 80%, 95% maybe, but just not above 50%, because I understand half of the words in a page I'm reading in Georgian now, and for the rest I can recognize most of them though not remember the meaning, and yet it's not as comfortable and productive to do this parallel reading as I would like and would expect after 2 years and 9 months. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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