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300-word High Proficiency Kernel Concept | ||
Tags: Number of words | Vocabulary learning | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5225 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 17 of 80 29 September 2014 at 1:04am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
A glimmer of an intelligent contribution; a refreshing change. There are over 30,000 Spanish words that are not on this list. That's not surprising for 310 words. The question is statistically how important are these words in the speaking genre that we are looking at. That said, there are undoubtedly some omissions and even a few mistakes. I have no problem adding the suggested words to the list. I also pointed out that I think that a list of 350 - 400 words would be considerably more useful. I should also add that this list deliberately does not include very simple vocabulary items that a C-level user already knows. Things like "hola, muchas gracias, buenos dias, etc." This is not the same vocabulary set as one would need to begin speaking - that's a whole different ball game and another debate that I dread. Edited by s_allard on 29 September 2014 at 1:06am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7000 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 18 of 80 29 September 2014 at 1:22am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
It may not be up there with Jeffers' contribution...
It was just the first sentence that came to mind when I saw you had generated a list.
You mean the fantasy world where you're cracking Korean safes? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5225 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 19 of 80 29 September 2014 at 1:50am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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If we ignore the silly chatter and get back to uses of the high-proficiency kernel, I think it goes a long way to
explaining how well-known polyglots and hyperpolyglots are able to maintain a large number of languages active. By concentrating on the kernel of each language, way under 1000 words, these polyglots can easily maintain an apparently high level of proficiency in all their languages. Not to in any way diminish their achievements. Keeping that kernel up to scratch is not very easy. But it's easier than trying to maintain 10,000 and 20,000 word vocabularies. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6392 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 20 of 80 29 September 2014 at 2:57am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Why do you keep on making assumptions instead of trying to find out what polyglots actually do? People like Prof Argüelles definitely maintain a 20k vocabulary at least passively. They (we?) do get help from cognates, borrowings and etymological connections, but most don't care about "apparently" sounding better than they really are. At least in their best languages polyglots definitely have pretty large vocabularies.
6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4704 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 21 of 80 29 September 2014 at 9:52am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
If I correctly understand what you're saying in this thread, you are suggesting that there is a core of high frequency words that learners should learn first, after which they should learn other useful words? Maybe they should just save time and use a frequency list. Okay, you say the kernel is customized based on the individual's needs, but it's not going to differ significantly in the first 300 words or so. The reason so many people are arguing in your threads is partly because you keep shifting your position. At first you just seemed to be arguing that learners don't need to learn mountains of vocabulary "to begin speaking", which was actually an important point (at least for those who want to speak from the start). Then it shifted to a discussion of whether you could pass a B1 exam with 300 words. At first you seemed to argue that this wasn't your intention, then you began to explicitly argue that you could pass even a C1 exam with 300 words. Now you say 300 words isn't enough even for your kernel. (EDIT: and now we also find out that "this list deliberately does not include very simple vocabulary items that a C-level user already knows"... with this statement the concept of a "kernel" is frankly lost, and the list becomes potentially infinite.) It is for the same reason that some of us can't resist creating "silly chatter". I've seen several users make excellent responses that have been completely ignored, but actually a good burst of laughter may be the best way to bring down a house of cards. Edited by Jeffers on 29 September 2014 at 9:57am 11 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5115 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 22 of 80 29 September 2014 at 10:31am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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@s_allard: I find your idea interesting; it reminds me a lot of Elisabeth Smith's book Instant Spanish, which she also adapted for a couple of other languages.
BTW, Smith manages to create meaningful (tourist level) sentences using only 31 verbs. (The whole book teaches about 390 words, including inflected verb forms.) How did you go about selecting the words for your list? Edited by Doitsujin on 29 September 2014 at 10:32am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6704 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 23 of 80 29 September 2014 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I think their ability to "limit" themselves to <1000 words is because they actually have pretty a large vocabulary in all their languages. It's easier to see the "variations on a theme" from a larger sample, and then it's easier to simplify things. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5225 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 24 of 80 29 September 2014 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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It is true that there are some people's posts that I ignore. I simply can't be bothered replying to what I consider
useless drivel. But when I see something that I like or a name that I respect, I certainly will respond. I have been accused of continuously changing positions. I actually take that as a compliment. I like to believe that I can evolve as new knowledge and ideas comes to the fore. Actually, I don't think that there is such a big change. Let me clarify my current position. There are two basic ideas. 1. In languages like French, English and Spanish, there exists a threshold of around 300 unique word families that are sufficient for a learner to start speaking on simple topics and interacting with native speakers. This is not the focus of this thread. 2. For purposes of speaking at high levels of proficiency - the CEFR C level - , a small number of around 300 unique word are all that a necessary for a given topic. I believe that we can define a such a kernel of widely used words that are in fact customized by users to a given topic. I repeat and repeat and repeat that this does not mean to say that one has to learn only selected 300 words to speak with high proficiency. I have given the thinking behind such a concept and even a specific example. Now I will admit that I have been wrong in insisting on the figure 300. I really think that 350 is a better figure for the size of the kernel, not what speakers actually use. What I find interesting here is that after I have gone to the trouble of actually giving an example of such a kernel that I am presently using and refining, all I see is some of the usual petty nitpicking about whether 300 is the right figure. I'm interested in hearing from the people who think that this sample kernel is completely useless. Edited by s_allard on 29 September 2014 at 4:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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