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300-word High Proficiency Kernel Concept | ||
Tags: Number of words | Vocabulary learning | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5226 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 41 of 80 30 September 2014 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think these are very astute observations. But on two different issues. First, when learning a new language should one concentrate on some sort of basic core? I tend to think yes. I've never really given it much thought although it would seem to make sense. Second, for high-proficiency users I totally think that the kernel concept is useful as a study guide and a maintenance tool. I had a lot of fun putting this list together despite all the work. And I'm still working on it. The value I see in it is that it tells me the things I have to know inside-out. It's like a check-list that I can run down from time to time. There's a hell of a lot of underlying stuff in there. At the same time, it's important to realize that there is a lot to learn outside this kernel. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4705 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 42 of 80 30 September 2014 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think people are arguing back because you make what appears to them to be outlandish claims about passing high level exams with little vocabulary. What you have said several times about learning to use words being more important that learning lots of words is a useful point. It's not a new or particularly insightful to say you should spend more time studying the more common words. I think Bao hit the nail on the head, because it seems you are focusing too much on words (whether 300 or 3000) and not enough on use. For me, the way I work on knowing the ins and outs of the core words is by lots of input via reading, watching and listening. Of course to do that well I need a larger vocabulary. But when I am working on input, I am getting used to the common and uncommon uses of a core of words. The more I study, perhaps the wider the core gets, but the most common words get practiced the most. You could almost say I am assimilating the core. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4329 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 43 of 80 30 September 2014 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Exactly. 80% of what you are going to be seeing, again and again, in reading and in speech comes from the first 2000 most common words, and >70% from the first 1000 (and probably >50% for the first 500). There is no way to avoid practising again and again the core as you extensively read or listen. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5226 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 44 of 80 30 September 2014 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
To say that I focus too much on words and not enough on use is really to misunderstand what I've been talking about so far. I think the real outlandish claims are from the people around here who say you need 10,000 or 20,000 words to speak a language. But I really don't want to rehash a debate that has already taken place with pretty much the same players. All has already been said. In this thread, I wanted to give an example of what I thought this high-proficiency tool kernel could look like. I don't know how many times I've said that I consider these words the tip of the iceberg. I know that not everybody speaks Spanish, but surely I can get more than a very skimpy comment on the contents. Do people see this as something as useful or not? I don't claim that this is the next great thing in language learning. I see it simply as a way of highlighting the key elements for speaking. I even see the weaknesses and problems in the first version. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5003 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 45 of 80 30 September 2014 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I agree with the general principle: the majority of speech uses the same relatively small set of words, and I think many intermediate/advanced learners focus too much on trying to learn a large number of words, including semi-obscure ones, when that time would be more effectively used on getting a better grip on the basics, solidifying the core so to speak. I see many learners, including myself, who have a pretty wide knowledge and good understanding of the language yet quite often mess up basics when speaking or writing.
I'm not convinced that lots of input is enough to "practise" the core; it's certainly helpful and gives you a better feeling for what sounds right, but I think that it needs to be complemented with some active work to be able to use it well rather than just recognise it well. I'm saying this both from my own experience and again from seeing many learners who don't have a very solid core for speaking despite years of living in the country and doing lots of reading/listening/watching. I'm not sure about the specifics of how to apply the whole idea, but it seems like nobody else is either ;). Not even the OP, hence the changing definitions and moving goalposts. Which is fine; at this stage it's just proposing and debating ideas. I'm interested to see where it will go. Edited by garyb on 30 September 2014 at 5:24pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5226 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 46 of 80 30 September 2014 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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For those who may be interested, I didn't have to pass the placement test after all. I had written a nice little e-
mail in my best Spanish, and that was enough. It goes to show that it doesn't take much to give the impression that you know a lot when it comes to speaking a language. Here is the answer I received: Hola, Serge: ¿Qué tal estás? El grupo superior del día, el jueves a las 11h30, ya está completo. Hoy ocho estudiantes que es el máximo para cada grupo. Si puedes venir al grupo del lunes en la tarde todavía queda una plaza. Hemos tenido muchos interesados en el grupo del día. Saludos, [/] 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4329 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 47 of 80 30 September 2014 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I know hardly anyone who advocates the heavy use of native materials for learning that would argue against the need to also practise output. They might argue about when the best time to start (early vs. late), but not about the need. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6378 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 48 of 80 30 September 2014 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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s_allard, I'm on board with you so far, but this doesn't seem to be finished. We've identified a kernel of 300-400 words. Awesome. Now what do we do with this information? How can we use this to improve our speaking skills?
6 persons have voted this message useful |
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