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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| AML Senior Member United States Joined 6621 days ago 323 posts - 426 votes  2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish | Message 1 of 34 20 October 2014 at 11:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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I was pondering recently about technology in language learning and also remembered this video (Parable of the Razor) by the Professor.
The basic question he's getting at is - Do all these new language learning techniques, materials, etc really make our language-learning lives better? He argues that the answer is "not really", much in the same way that all the new fancy razors for shaving don't really shave your face any better than the instruments from 100 years ago. My question is: Does anyone here learn new languages completely without the aid of modern electronic devices (computer, internet, SRS, smartphones, Kindle, etc) in a manner comparable to how people may have learned a language 100 years ago? That is, you likely use paper flash cards (index cards), paper dictionaries, paper books, talk to people in the same room, etc. If so, please give a specific example with a language you've learned in this way. What materials did you use exactly? How did you use them? What level of success have you achieved? Do you feel like you would have succeeded with a more modern approach (SRS vs index cards, ReadLang vs a paper book)? I'm very interested. P.S. This video converted me to shaving with the old school safety razor about four years ago, and it's certainly cheaper and works great. Edited by AML on 20 October 2014 at 11:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| YnEoS Senior Member United States Joined 4050 days ago 472 posts - 893 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Cantonese, Japanese, French, Hungarian, Czech, Swedish, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish | Message 2 of 34 20 October 2014 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think the point of the video is that better technology doesn't automatically mean it's an improvement and doesn't fundamentally change the way we learn languages, but I don't think we can say that technology hasn't improved language learning, it certainly has made study much more convenient and customizable.
Professor Arguelles himself prefers to shadow his old Assimil courses while walking in a park. I think he'd find this quite difficult to do if he was using these back when the courses were originally released and all the audio was on vinyl records. There are a lot of "new" learning methods that fail to understand the true benefits that technology offer. The fact that some modern courses with such cool concepts behind them as Duolingo are still forcing you to learn all the farm animals before you can learn the past tense is absolutely maddening, and a huge step backwards. (Sorry for answering a different question than what you asked) Edited by YnEoS on 20 October 2014 at 11:43pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| soclydeza85 Senior Member United States Joined 3703 days ago 357 posts - 502 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 3 of 34 21 October 2014 at 1:53am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm not completely off the grid when it comes to my language learning, though I prefer to be as much as possible.
I use physical books and I write everything down by hand (unless I'm emailing somebody). I see pros and cons of using a computer. For one, it can be a bit more convenient. If I'm looking up a noun/adjective, I usually use my favorite online dictionary, since it is a lot faster. When I look up a verb, I usually use my physical dictionary since verbs can have different uses and online dictionaries seem to be a little TOO descriptive with all the uses, just confusing me further. Physical dictionaries are more to the point. If I had to choose one or the other, I would take the physical dictionary. I tend to use electronic devices for things that I cannot readily replicate in the real world. I prefer face to face conversation, but I don't always have the opportunity, so I will supplement it through some means online. I'm not sure if you consider listening to audio as using modern devices, but I find these to be crucial. I can't just go outside and eavesdrop on strangers having a conversation since I don't live in the native country of the language I am learning (plus it would be kind of creepy). In short, I prefer the older, physical methods (when it comes to learning/doing anything in general); but some cannot be replicated and for those I use modern devices. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6499 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 4 of 34 21 October 2014 at 9:55am | IP Logged | ||
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I use the internet a lot to find texts and audio clips, and I use Google translate a lot to produce bilingual printouts for intensive study (in spite of its severe shortcomings), but my wordlists are totally analog / manual (I even use paper dictionaries), and when I study my bilingual printouts I do so in an armchair with my ballpoint pen as the most technologically advanced gadget involved in the process.
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 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5328 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 34 21 October 2014 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'd imagine it's pretty straightforward to learn a language with no technology if you're surrounded by it.
But if you don't live in a country where the language is spoken, how do you work on listening comprehension without using technology? Remember: CDs, MP3s, DVDs, cable TV, Internet video and shopping on Amazon all rely on digital technology. Of course, you could buy an 80s-era tape player and some listening courses on tape, but you'll probably only get a few hours of slow, spoken audio for beginners. Once upon a time, if I recall correctly, there were "magazines" for French students that came with tapes, and of course there were French audiobooks on tape. But good luck finding a source for them today without going online. I don't think I could even buy an analog tape player today without going online. Record players are still available locally, but French-language records aren't. As for French BDs and books, I can still buy them from physical stores in paper format, but it's a lot more expensive, the selection is worse, and I can't use a pop-up dictionary. As far as I'm concerned, the great thing about technology is that it makes native media easily accessible. Which brings me to my final question: If I'm not surrounded by French speakers, and if I can't watch TV in French, and if books are expensive and difficult to get, why on earth would I even bother learning French in the first place? 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5032 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 6 of 34 21 October 2014 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | ||
If you want a serious response to that question an Internet forum probably isn't the best place to ask. :) Jungle tribes in South America possibly might do this, but for the sake of efficiency the Internet is much better. Although I must admit I prefer to read books which are printed on paper precisely because they don't have a pop-up dictionary. This forces me into trying to work out unknown words via context. If I can't then I underline them and look them up later. Sometimes the ease of looking something up takes away the mini-test you'd otherwise have trying to remember of figure out something. I also prefer to speak to people face-to-face and I have the advantage of working in a multi-national company with a lot of French speakers. Italian & Mandarin are more difficult and so I have to resort to tutors and Internet exchanges. One of my French friends did say that he learned English almost exclusively via a book and listening to BBC World broadcasts when he was growing up in France. Seems the school system wasn't very helpful. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Radioclare Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom timeofftakeoff.com Joined 4379 days ago 689 posts - 1119 votes Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian | Message 7 of 34 21 October 2014 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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I learned German and Esperanto to an intermediate level without using the Internet or much other technology.
When I started learning German I had a Berlitz book and a small dictionary. I didn't have access to any audio at all, not even cassettes, so I had deliberately chosen the Berlitz book over any other course because for the first few chapters all the dialogues and vocabulary had a phonetic approximation of their pronunciation underneath. It wasn't very efficient but I used to spend hours reading the dialogues aloud and trying to get the hang of the pronunciation. Later I started corresponding with a penfriend (on pen and paper) and he occasionally posted me novels to read, and once a cassette tape of German pop music. I got to a fairly good level like this and a year later was able to convince a university lecturer to let me attend a German class for which I didn't have any of the right qualifications on paper, but to this day I think my reading/writing is a lot stronger than my speaking/listening. I also learned Esperanto from a book, also without audio or contact with other speakers. I found Esperanto harder than German because I had a reasonable idea what German sounded like before I started learning because I had been on lots of holidays to German-speaking countries. I had never heard anyone speaking Esperanto and I spent a lot of time obsessing over how long the vowels were supposed to be and what 'uj' ought to sound like. It was years before I eventually heard spoken Esperanto and it turned out I had got a few things wrong with the vowels, but nothing which couldn't be rectified. Croatian is the first language I have tried to learn with the benefit of the Internet and other technology. It's definitely useful to be able to watch Croatian TV online and Google the translations of words I don't know when I'm reading. I love using Memrise to practise new vocabulary, especially the app on my phone. Other than that, I'm still quite old-fashioned though. I learn best from a book and I don't learn anything at all unless I write it out by hand. Sometimes I actually think that it is significantly harder to learn a language now that I have Internet access because there is so much potential to get sidetracked. Back when I only had one German textbook, I was able to give it my full undivided attention for hours on end and I knew it inside out. Now I have access to an infinite amount of knowledge at the touch of a button and I ignore most of it because I get distracted looking at cat pictures on Facebook. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| victorhart Bilingual Tetraglot Groupie United States mandarinexperiment.o Joined 3503 days ago 66 posts - 155 votes Speaks: English*, Portuguese*, Spanish, French Studies: Mandarin | Message 8 of 34 21 October 2014 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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I was reading on this site yesterday about Mezzofanti. Although the story seems hard
to believe in its entirety, apparently it's well documented and the owner of this site puts a lot of faith in it. So supposedly and according to the Guiness Book of World Records, in the 19th century this gentleman learned to speak 27 languages fluently (sources say without any accent), without leaving Italy. So I suppose you can find valuable answers to your question by reading his biography. I personally think the best way to learn a language, when possible, is simply talking a lot to natives (and getting them to correct you) and doing a lot of reading and some writing, none of which requires modern technology. However, a fourth vital component is listening, and technology certain helps a great deal with that if you do not have easy access to native speakers. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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