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French diglossia- thoughts for discussion | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4463 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes  Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 33 of 38 23 April 2015 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | ||
But this is not a mainstream view in Croatia, but a push by few, but very vocal right wing nationalists: not even ''a more Croatian'' spelling is compulsory, compare: site:hr podatci About 208,000 results podaci About 8,340,000 results Croatization/purification hasn't caught on simply because Croatians don't want to change the way they write or speak, that is, any purism or Grammar Nazism is about to fail since we embrace the policy spread by linguist Vuk Karadzic: You should write the way you talk (and/or vice versa). I, personally, embrace this way (Zero tolerance toward diglossia or diglossic tendencies) and I am so happy many languages have abandoned diglossia in recent years (Bengali and Telugu come to mind). The only thing ''grammarian actions'' can do is promote the use of hypercorrective language, like: ''Não poderia-se dizer'' in Brazilian Portuguese (Hyphen is kept even there's negation and there's conditional) ''Se você chamá-la'' in Brazilian Portuguese (Enclisis with future subjunctive because ''Se você chamar ela'' is banned) ''For you and I'' in English (nominative form of pronoun is kept even after preposition) etc. So, in the end, language policing has done more bad than good. Edited by Medulin on 23 April 2015 at 1:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4316 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 34 of 38 23 April 2015 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | ||
How is this possible? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Croatian_ dialects.PNG If everybody write as they speak, how do you understand the writing of Istrian people for example? Or should everybody write (and ultimately speak) the way the speakers of Shtokavian speak? Just wondering ... I have no experience with Croatian whatsoever. Edited by daegga on 23 April 2015 at 7:59pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4463 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 35 of 38 24 April 2015 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | ||
Istrian dialects are dead for anyone older than 50 years of age. In my city (Medulin) the standard Croatian is spoken, albeit with a local accent (speech melody). The situation is even more ''serious'' in the provincial capital (Pula), thanks to migration of people from Slavonia (Eastern Croatia) and Bosnia (during the war), the local dialect has been replaced with standard Croatian. The traditional dialect is used only in some songs in order to ''revive'' it, but it's already been lost. Because of the war, in the last 20 years, non-Stokavian regions have had a flux of Stokavian speakers, that's why the dialects are almost gone (like in Sweden) , and unlike in Norway or Switzerland. Even local Italians are using general North-accented standard Italian, since it's what they hear on (Mediaset) tv and it is what young people are taught at school. In the villages, young(er) people speak Standard Croatian, and they are no longer dialect speakers, they are at best ''dialect listeners'' because they can understand what their aging/dying grandparents talk to them in the traditional dialect. Edited by Medulin on 24 April 2015 at 6:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4804 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 36 of 38 24 April 2015 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well, the Czech example is just plainly wrong, no idea why this myth keeps persisting.
It is not diglossia, it is a set of region based differences. Yeah, the Arabic dialects could be called "a set of region based differences as well" but Arabic dialects can have tens of millions of speakers while the Czech ones have hundreds of thousands usually. Part of the country speaks grammatically correct Czech, other parts have their own features/mistakes each. Diglossia might be the situation with the slovak minority in the Czech Republic. They speak Slovak and are spoken to in Czech, they watch tv and read books and newspapers in Czech, they are sometimes supposed to write in Czech (even though not often enough). Even their children might be speaking more Slovak than Czech at home. I find it funny that Medulin put Czech among diglossial languages and SLovak among the non-diglossial ones because the opposite is true. -A Czech speaks Czech with bits of the dialect and mistakes coming from their social and educational background -A Slovak, even in Slovakia, watches tv both in Slovak and Czech, can buy books both in Slovak and Czech. When a significant part of slovaks migrate to the Czech Republic, they speak Slovak but use Czech for the other purposes. I think this wrong example is really being overused. Medulin, where did you find the courses to improve grammar for natives that you mentioned as a proof of diglossia? I never heard of any. I know of courses of creative writing (which are mostly about stylistics and story telling and such things) and courses of speech (as ways to work on voice, on style, on being convincing and so on). The only correction an adult native gets is very indirect. If you make obvious grammar mistakes in an email, you are considered an idiot. That is not about diglossia, the i/y distinction that is very important in writen language has no representation in the spoken one, just as use of "," in sentences. The common mistakes are often not a sign of diglossia, they are sign of poor education. I don't know why the Croatians don't learn grammar at school as well, perhaps your grammar doesn't have features that are not perceptible from the spoken language? And from the bits I read, Croatian might a very unique example as your language is sometimes even being artificially divided into three parts to follow the social demand for distinction. I found interesting the example with the shortened words in French. But if those are a proof of diglossia, than so is quite everything. The language used in sms or in facebook messages, is it diglossia? I still don't think so. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6951 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 37 of 38 24 April 2015 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'd say that the case of Czech is close to diglossia given the amount of differences between obecná and spisovná čeština. It's not just in contraction, but grammatical differences (s kamarády vs. s kamarádama; dobré pivo vs. dobrý pivo) This speaks to a temporal difference given that spisovná is based largely on how the language was used in the 16th and 17th century around Prague. As I understand it obecná čeština is effectively the reflex of spisovná čeština after about 300 years.
On top of this is any geographical consideration. I'm thinking of someone whose native tongue is hanáčtina but uses obecná čeština with other Czechs (especially those outside Moravia), and in formal situations and with foreigners (or foreign learners of Czech) uses spisovná čeština - the virtues of standardization and public education. This could be probably easier to argue as diglossia (triglossia with strained arguments?) This is not a bad summary of the differences between obecná and spisovná. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Voxel Newbie France Joined 4649 days ago 31 posts - 45 votes Speaks: French* Studies: Russian | Message 38 of 38 01 May 2015 at 7:51pm | IP Logged | ||
We write "Chui" not "shuis". "Que sais-je ?" is never pronounced "que saish". We can say "T'es sûr ?" instead of "Tu es sûr ?" but not "Et sûr ?" I hope that helps. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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