|
 |
How much time studying vocabulary? | ||
Tags: Time to learn | Vocabulary learning | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4702 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 337 of 350 03 June 2015 at 11:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I will never criticize your love of courses, I think you're doing a great thing PM. However, I will take exception to your final sentence in this quote, "you're not too likely to need that extensive coverage by reading are you not?" There are a few differences: * With a course you learn a "standard" or neutral definition of a word. In actual use words are used more subtly in ways that dictionaries can't fully get across. You could put everything a dictionary tells you on a card, but that would be a bit like using a sledgehammer to do a job requiring a scalpel. * Coursework and SRS are learning about a language. Extensive reading is using a language. It's not just about which one teaches you more, it's a qualitative difference. (Note that I'm using the philosophical definition of "qualitative", which is subtly different than simply measuring the "quality" of something.) Meeting a word on a course or SRS is a bit like meeting an animal in a zoo and not in the wild: you can learn a lot about it, possibly more than in the wild, but it's just not the same thing. * Extensive reading is not just to build up vocabulary, to my mind it is to get used to the language as it is actually used. It is where you assimilate and practice the principles you learn in courses. In addition, you experience the subtleties of language that could never be taught in a course. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5269 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 338 of 350 03 June 2015 at 11:20am | IP Logged | ||||||||
You know deep down I know every one of your points makes sense. I was hoping to be proved right so I could soldier my way through 700 trillion courses and forget about reading for a while. I think one of the issues is I just own so many courses and I enjoy the sense of accomplishment of making my way through them that that's what I want to do. I know you are right and I need to balance my intensive activities (zoo visitations) with my extensive activities (wild, natural environments- it's your fault Jeffers if I get attacked by a tiger or a lion- they're everywhere in France you know!). Balance is such a key word that is taking me forever to realise despite knowing it's important intrinsic value. One thing I"ve learned is to stop buying courses! French I have so many it's rediculous, at least Spanish and Dutch (when I get to them) I own a little less, and German much less. I hear you Jeffers, I"ll go nuts with my courses a little bit longer and then reintroduce the reading in the near future :) Edit:
I also hear you too Serpent, despite my earlier comments.... thank you :) (end edit) PM ---- Cat scan anybody? Never know if you've changed into a cat, right? Better off checking, better safe than sorry. After all you could be eating all the wrong foods- cats don't eat human food and you could be putting your body under unnecessary undue stress. Edited by PeterMollenburg on 03 June 2015 at 11:53am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4702 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 339 of 350 03 June 2015 at 11:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
One thing this thread hasn't specifically mentioned is the semantic domain approach to meaning. As much as people want them to, words just do not have a one-to-one correspondence between languages. This is because words do not have single definition, they have semantic domains, by which I mean a fuzzy edged range of meaning.
The obvious objection is that nouns refer to specific objects, and therefore they certainly have the same meaning across languages. But even with very concrete objects there is additional cultural and linguistic baggage that affect the meaning of the word, and specific ways a word is used in a language. I'll give a couple of examples I've just thought of (so they might not be the best examples). "Nail" in English can refer to at least two concrete objects: fingernails and nails for carpentry. French has two distinct words for these objects: ongle and clou, but I think ongle can be used for both. Hindi has two words for these objects: कील (kil) and नाखून (naakhuun), the first referring only to the carpentry nail, the second referring only to the fingernail. So already there is a problem with correspondence of a simple concrete object. Beyond that, the word "nail" is used as a verb in English, and has many other meanings based on this. I can "nail a test", "nail a woman" or "nail a villain" and all three of them are based on the core idea of "nailing" but mean completely different things. I really have no idea if I can use verb forms of "nail" in French or Hindi to mean any of these three things. The point is that the semantic domain of the verb "nail" in English covers the concepts of total success, sex and killing. Animals are a case where there is often a clear connection between the words in different languages, and yet the words can often cover radically different semantic domains. For example "owl" in English is the same creature as उल्लू (ulluu) in Hindi. However, in English if I use "owl" in reference to a person I am either referring to the fact they stay up late at night or I am calling them wise. In Hindi, however, calling someone an उल्लू (ulluu) is a dreadful insult and is a strong way of calling them a fool and dirty. I still think there is a lot of use in word lists with single definitions, because they are a good way to get started in understanding a language. However, you need to be aware that in practice the words are going to cover different ranges of meaning (semantic domains). Possibly the differences are usually subtle and unimportant for a beginner. But those subtleties are one thing that makes languages interesting. Other times the difference will be quite radical and a beginner needs to be careful about how they use a word. Edited by Jeffers on 03 June 2015 at 11:55am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5269 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 340 of 350 03 June 2015 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I know this post Jeffers isn't just for me... but I'd like to comment. I think this is exactly why my flashcards are taking so long to enter. I feel it's not enough by any means to have single word translations- first I need to clarify whether "alimentation" means grocer's, groceries, food, food retailing, food industry (which I've grouped together on one card), or if it means diet, habit/way of eating, or feeding (eg artificial/medical feeding) and so on. All this requires clarification and examples. At least I'm working my way through the cards quicker on review now. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5223 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 341 of 350 03 June 2015 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Although I agree with the general gist of what is being said here, I really think that it is wrong to oppose courses and reading. Courses are courses; they are tools for learning the language and can differ very much in content. An advanced course will contain more sophisticated and detailed material than a beginner course. A course can certainly teach the subtleties of a language if it properly designed. That's why we have all these websites and books on languages. And we can take classes in creative writing. Some are of course better than others. To say that a course teaches a standard or "neutral" definition of a word, as opposed to actual use is in my opinion very misleading. And I'm not sure this is what Jeffers really means. What is a neutral definition of a word? What I think is meant here is that certain courses may only teach the principal or most common uses of a word whereas a more advanced course will go into greater depth. We see this in dictionaries all the time. A small pocket dictionary will give the most common definitions and limited examples whilst a big dictionary will have more extensive entries, more detailed examples and historical notes. As for extensive reading being "using" a language, I agree but with the proviso that we are talking about passive use of the language, i.e. enjoying the work. This is a far cry from actively talking or writing in the language. I would call this really using the language. Edited by s_allard on 03 June 2015 at 4:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5055 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 342 of 350 03 June 2015 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
It depends. I agree that to truly speak and know a language in all its aspects one must speak, write, listen and read. Using a language can also involve just reading. Case in point Middle Egyptian, Latin, Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Old Church Slavonic, Old English, etc- or a modern language for those whose aim that may be. Who am I going to speak Ancient Greek with except other non-natives? It can also involve reading and consuming media (listening). My aim is to be able to use the language in all its aspects and especially with people by speaking and writing.
What a shame we don't have a category for "reads" rather than just "speaks" for the languages profiles under our user names. It would provide some needed perspective when evaluating posts from users. As to courses, in my experience, one or two are enough to get a learner started. A more advanced course can come in handy too, depending on how basic the starter course is. Drills are very useful for me. Srs can be very useful for many people too. Srs is just not my thing. What really advances my languages are conversations with people, writing, listening to media and reading. I find that (speaking for myself only) to be a heck of a lot more fun than courses and flashcards. I try to do it as soon as I can. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6390 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 343 of 350 03 June 2015 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
|
Truly using a language takes effort and experience. If you mean that with your French and Spanish you can read and mostly understand a text in Italian, I agree that it's not really using the language in the same way as you use your strong languages.
But productive skills aren't somehow "better" than receptive. A real enjoyment of literature is not passive at all. You appreciate it much more if you're subconsciously aware of how you would word this or that thing, and how the author's way is more sophisticated, or more simple and effective, or whatever. And to reiterate, that takes experience, even in a related language that you (seem to) understand. Edited by Serpent on 03 June 2015 at 5:31pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6496 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 344 of 350 03 June 2015 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I totally agree. For me reading is much easier than speaking, and there are languages and dialects which I can enjoy reading hardly without touching a dictionary, but can't speak - at least not fluently or in the presence of other human beings. But it still took some effort to get the vocabulary and the grammatical savvy to get there. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
