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"Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4638 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 9 of 12 24 June 2015 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The title of the book is a pun. "Dem sein/der ihr" is a colloquial way to paraphrase the genitive with a dative construction, so it reflects the message of the title: "The Dative is the Death of the Genitive".
However, this construction is considered to be very colloquial and bad style, so it's some kind of inside joke, as Doitsujin already pointed out. If I'm not mistaken the same construction exists in other Germanic languages and in some of them (Afrikaans and Norwegian?) it's even considered to be correct usage. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4315 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 10 of 12 24 June 2015 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
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This is the usual construction in my dialect, but even here, people would find it funny
when this is used in writing. If I remember correctly, it originated in Low German several hundred years ago and then it spread out. The Norwegians call it garpe-genetiv, with "garp" referring to German merchants (think Hanse), and is most prevalent in the old merchant towns and their surroundings. In some parts of the country this is still considered childish use (in writing) by many as far as I understand. It seems to be acceptable now in Nynorsk, but not in Bokmaal. When books/style guides etc. talk about incorrect usage or bad style, they are usually talking about the written form of the language and/or the formal spoken variant used in speeches, public TV etc. The general spoken form - even when it seems to be close to Standard German - is more diverse and a lot more progressive then the written form. Just keep this in mind when you are reading this kind of books targeted at native speakers as a language learner. Edited by daegga on 24 June 2015 at 1:59pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| AlexTG Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 4432 days ago 178 posts - 354 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Latin, German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 11 of 12 24 June 2015 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I suppose it'll give you a good idea of the prescriptivist beliefs Germans have about
their own language, which can be a useful thing to know. But the author sounds like a real dick based on the scathing comments made in the L'Harmattan book Parlons allemand. Basically he's a mediocre writer who simply enjoys naming and shaming people who use lower class speech to make him and his middle class readers feel good about themselves. No thanks. Edited by AlexTG on 24 June 2015 at 2:54pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5114 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 12 of 12 24 June 2015 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
It couldn't hurt if advanced German students study common German errors, because it might help them better understand (incorrectly written) German, however, incorporating these errors into their own repertoire won't make them sound more authentic or "real."
I'm not familiar with the L'Harmattan book, and I certainly don't agree with all of Herr Sick's nitpicks, however, IMHO, the majority of his topics are no-nonsense suggestions on how to avoid typical grammar and style pitfalls. For example, he points out that many writers incorrectly use an apostrophe followed by an s for plural forms, for example, Info's. I fail to see how such suggestions will contribute to "lower class shaming." You may want to have a look at his book, the majority of which is available online at Google Books and form your own opinion. Of course, this does not mean that Sick's books are beyond reproach. For some partially valid criticisms, see André Meinunger's book Sick of Sick? Ein Streifzug durch die Sprache als Antwort auf den »Zwiebelfisch«. 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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