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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Maks Newbie Croatia Joined 4799 days ago 15 posts - 9 votes | Message 49 of 96 09 March 2011 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Here's an example of random sentences from my life
ENGLIS LANGUAGE: Another week with a girl I'll go to the cinema, will film "Iron fist", but about the fact that the car no spare wheel will come by plane to Split, would you have to wait at the airport March 18 date in 10 hours!? CROATIAN LANGUAGE: Drugi ću tjedan sa curom ići u kino, bit će film "Željezna šaka", no glede toga da u vozilu nemam pričuvni kotač doći ću zrakoplovom iz Splita, bi li me mogao pričekati u zračnoj luci nadnevka 18 ožujka u 10 sati !? SERBIAN LANGUAGE: Druge nedelje ću da idem u bioskop sa devojkom, biće film "Gvozdena pesnica", ali u pogledu tog da u kolima nemam rezervni točak ja ću da dođem vazduhoplovom iz Splita, dali bi mogao da me sačekaš na aerodromu datuma 18 marta u 10 časova !? Do you understand what you want to say, the languages are similar! Razumijete li što vam želim reči, jezici su spodobni! Dali razumete šta želim da vam kažem, slični su jezici! Edited by Maks on 09 March 2011 at 12:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| virtualvlad Newbie Macedonia Joined 5775 days ago 1 posts - 6 votes Speaks: Macedonian* | Message 50 of 96 09 March 2011 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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LOL. I'm sorry, but I had to interfere.
The differences that Maks is describing between "Serbian" and "Croatian" are actually synonyms present in both countries Serbia and Croatia mixed with a flavor of newly invented words. His two "totally different" languages would be equivalent to the following two "totally different" languages called "English X" and "English Y". English X: I'm taking my girlfriend to the movies next week. We are going to see " The Iron Fist". But, because I don't have a spare tyre in my car I'll fly by plane from the city of Split. Can you wait for me at the airport on April 1. at 10 AM? English Y: Next week I'll be going with my cutie to the cinema. We are seeing "The Metal Hand". But couse I ain't got an extra pneumatic in my vehicle I'll take the aircraft from Split. Could you intercept me at the airfield on MonthOfGrass 1. at 10 in the morning? LOL. Cheers. Edited by virtualvlad on 09 March 2011 at 5:18pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6944 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 51 of 96 09 March 2011 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
How many times do we have to point it out? Differential lists mean little in comparative linguistics because of the inherent biases or vulnerability to manipulation from the list's creator(s). These are hardly "random" sentences since they cast synonyms as mutually unintelligible words, confuse stylistic tendencies as fixed rules so implying a rigidity or linguistic barrier that actually does not exist between Croats and Serbs (well, apart from the nationalists) Your walls of contrived lists actively prey on the ignorance of outsiders and leave them with the dubious impression that if they were to learn Croatian (as you see it), they would face a nearly insurmountable linguistic barrier when trying to interact or learn about the culture of neighbouring Bosnians, Montenegrins or Serbs. There's no need to live in the past rehashing the old grudges about Yugoslavia that led to the Balkan wars in the first place. I have already shown that I could just as easily manipulate juxtaposed sentences to show that Croatian and Serbian are IDENTICAL. Should I take advantage of outsiders' ignorance by thus making them conclude with my sentences that "Croatian" is merely a synonym for "Serbian" and make an additional leap of faith in showing that Serbs are just Croats but don't know it? Give us a break. As language-learners we're interested in widening our vistas by using the flexibility of language for communication and inter-cultural understanding rather than to create intolerance or mark territory as dogs do when they bark wildly at other dogs or people. I'm curious how you would react if I were to put your sentences into Kajkavian and Chakavian. Would their existence and all of their differences from textbook Croatian prove that they are different languages? Would you be "less Croatian" when it turns out that the unified Croatian nation does not truly speak one unified Croatian language? Edited by Chung on 09 March 2011 at 5:37pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| bushwick Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6032 days ago 407 posts - 443 votes Speaks: German, Croatian*, English, Dutch Studies: French, Japanese | Message 52 of 96 09 March 2011 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The sentence you constructed just now in Croatian seems incredibly odd. You're inventing examples, in a way, nobody speaks. I'll take the liberty to translate this to everyday, colloquial Croatian (this is not to say that the language Maks used is even used in literary language, but I will illustrate this in a minute). CROATIAN: Drugi ću tjedan sa curom ("djevojkom") ići u kino pogledati film "Željezna šaka", ali kako u autu (vozilo is a generic word meaning vehicle) nemam rezervni kotač, doći ću avionom ("zrakoplov is the "official" word, which nobody makes an effort to use in everyday speech) iz Splita. Bi li me mogao pričekati na aerodromu (zračna luka is also "official") , 18. ožujka u 10 sati? (Maks' text above is also my first encounter with the word "nadnevka", please note that I was educated in Croatia for 13 years) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DztrX5dXmxU&feature=player_em bedded (this will only amuse people who speak Croatian, terribly sorry for all the Serbian, Bosnian and Montenegrin learnes, as they will not understand a word :D) Edited by bushwick on 09 March 2011 at 10:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5236 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 53 of 96 10 March 2011 at 2:17am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
LOL :D Maks, if you wanted to demonstrate that a modern day Croat is not able to construct a sentence in Serbian, then you made it :D since this is not Serbian, every Serb would laugh on this sentence (or give you a weird look). Look, I was born in Serbia, far away from Croatian border, 20 something years ago. My generation didn't grow up in old Yugoslavia. I had never set a foot on Croatian land till 2004. Then in 2004/2005 I spent significant time in Croatia (Split). I didn't have a single language trouble except for the funny situation few times when I asked "Why?" (using a short version of 'zasto' - 'sto?') and the other person thought I was asking 'What?" (the 'sta?'/'sto?' distinction between S and C. Have you ever been to Serbia? Edited by Aineko on 10 March 2011 at 7:50am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6944 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 54 of 96 10 March 2011 at 5:54am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I believe that Maks drew on a rather little-used Croatian neologism "nadnevak" as a synonym for "datum". See this paper by the nationalist linguist, Mario Grčević and search for the word "nadnevak". Again this shows Maks' manipulation since he substituted a word codified as a valid Croatian one (datum - see below) with one that is exclusive to Croatian purists in order to fit the nationalist thesis that Croatian and Serbian are (or at minimum appear to the layman) as different as chalk and cheese. I have the following resources for "Croatian" on my shelf that appeared after 1991 (i.e. Croatia's secession from Yugoslavia) and none of these list "nadnevak", only "datum". This is quite telling for me since "date" is hardly an esoteric concept and one would think that something as banal as this word would be introduced in a basic dictionary or course for beginners. "Langenscheidts Taschenwörterbuch Kroatsich" (1999) (Croatian-German/German-Croatian Pocket Dictionary) "Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian - A Textbook with Exercises and Basic Grammar" (2006) "Teach Yourself Croatian" (2003) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Merv Bilingual Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5061 days ago 414 posts - 749 votes Speaks: English*, Serbo-Croatian* Studies: Spanish, French | Message 55 of 96 10 March 2011 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Also notice that Maks's sentence has "nemam rezervni točak," whereas I would think it should be in the genitive:
"nemam rezervnog točka" or better yet "nemam rezervnu gumu." This is really pretty basic. I've watched some Croatian clips in the past and - is it just me? - it seems that they mess up noun cases more often than Serbians or Bosnians. I've also seen less of a distinction made between č and ć in Croatian speech than in Serbian speech, but perhaps that's not the case after all. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Fazla Hexaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6050 days ago 166 posts - 255 votes Speaks: Italian, Serbo-Croatian*, English, Russian, Portuguese, French Studies: Arabic (classical), German, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 56 of 96 10 March 2011 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Don't know if anybody cares but, my native language is Bosnian and those supposed great differences between Croatian and Serbian are laughable because he just uses synonims. I don't see why would djevojka be Serbian and Croatian cura.
For anybody interested it's like saying "girl" is Serbian and "fiancee" Croatian and claiming they are different languages because of that. The constructions he uses are really pushed to the limit, I mean seriously ali u pogledu tog da u kolima nemam rezervni točak ja ću da dođem vazduhoplovom iz Splita Nobody speaks like this it sounds soooo artificial. Btw, I lived only in Bosnia, been to Croatia and Serbia many times, not one time did I have a problem in communication, with some normal exceptions anybody can expect in a different region. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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