Most inefficient languages? (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Most inefficient languages?
Tags: Difficulty
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Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages	( Topic Closed)

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FSI
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Speaks: English*

Message 57 of 69

19 September 2007 at 7:37pm | IP Logged

justinwilliams wrote:

I know people learn everywhere but it isn't ebough to conclude that no single language is easier from that fact.

If you've got a way of proving that the fact that humans all over the world learn their native languages to the same levels of proficiency in the same amount of time, and use these languages to express any thoughts that come to mind with absolute ease *somehow* isn't enough to conclude that the various quirks of natural languages even themselves out when compared to all other natural languages, I'd love to hear it.
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justinwilliams
Diglot
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Canada
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Speaks: French*, English^C2
Studies: German, Italian

Message 58 of 69

19 September 2007 at 7:40pm | IP Logged

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Edited by justinwilliams on 19 September 2007 at 8:30pm
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lloydkirk
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Russian

Message 59 of 69

19 September 2007 at 7:49pm | IP Logged

FSI wrote:

lloydkirk wrote:

So no, I don't enjoy learning the unnecessary complexities a language and have no admiration for those that do.

The issue is that your ideas of "unnecessary complexities" are completely filtered through the fact that you were raised speaking English - yet you refuse to acknowledge this on even a fundamental level, instead choosing to insist that these "complexities" are universally unnecessary.

Can you read sir? I have a broad enough view of languages to acknowledge that my native language suffers the same unnecessary complexities. I live in a french Canadian community and even they don't deny that their gender system is unnecessary. My friends from the middle east have also mentioned the issue to me. I do believe that some aspects of languages are "universally unnecessary". I hope this is my last post in this thread. I have no more energy to argue with you and this forum was not created for endless debates. Please do us all a favor and join the debate team at your middle school...

Edited by lloydkirk on 19 September 2007 at 8:07pm
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FSI
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United States
Joined 6357 days ago
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Speaks: English*

Message 60 of 69

19 September 2007 at 7:54pm | IP Logged

justinwilliams wrote:

What's with the time thing? I didn't know time was a measure of difficulty.

If it takes you longer to learn something as an infant than it takes you to learn something else, the first thing is likely more difficult to learn. You said this yourself on page six. Have you changed your mind?

Quote:

If you use, say, 50% of your brain capacity to learn English in 3 years then why couldn't you manage to learn a '1.5 times harder language' in just the same time.

Do you honestly believe children are juggling brain capacities when picking up languages? Children aren't adults - they don't scope out which parts of languages they're going to learn, and divide things with study charts and yearly goals. They just learn. If children could learn languages faster, why wouldn't they? If languages without genders were absolutely easier than languages with genders, why wouldn't children in genderless languages begin speaking before children in gendered languages? The fact that they learn all languages within the same amounts of time (and not before certain definite marks in time) is a pretty good sign that A.) the languages are equal in difficulty, and B.) they can't learn them any faster.

Quote:

You don't have finite brain resources so time is completely irrelevant.

Nope - this doesn't work. By this logic, learning to count to 10 could take 1 week, and learning to count from 10 to 11 could take a month. Doesn't happen. Things that are easier take less time to learn.

Quote:

Incorrect: Or I got 90% in a 15 week physics class and I got 90% in a 15 week dance class therefore both are equally difficult...No therefore there.

A language is not a physics course. A language is not a dance class. You're using strange analogies again, and are going to get upset when I point out how they don't work...again.

Quote:

How exactly do you measure such 'equivalent proficiency'?

Take your pick - vocabulary. grammar. speaking ability. aural comprehension. Children the world over reach similar levels of articulation in similar amounts of time. The translated speech of a four year old in the US will not be significantly ahead or behind (on average) than that of a four year old in China.

Edited by FSI on 19 September 2007 at 7:57pm
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FSI
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Speaks: English*

Message 61 of 69

19 September 2007 at 7:56pm | IP Logged

lloydkirk wrote:

Can you read sir?

Sure. I'm still waiting for you to explain how certain languages (that just happen to do things differently from English) are "unnecessarily complex" (in comparison to English, doubtless).
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lloydkirk
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Message 62 of 69

19 September 2007 at 8:06pm | IP Logged

God you are dense...I wasn't even comparing french to english. I provided you with the opinions of native french speaker and egyptian friends who shared my views. I get the feeling that you're one of those people who loves to argue for the sake of arguing. I no longer wish to oblige.
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justinwilliams
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Message 63 of 69

19 September 2007 at 8:11pm | IP Logged

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Edited by justinwilliams on 19 September 2007 at 8:29pm
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FSI
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Speaks: English*

Message 64 of 69

19 September 2007 at 8:20pm | IP Logged

justinwilliams wrote:

C) That things other than linguistic abilities hinder their progress namely social interaction, brain development...

If brain development and social interaction hindered their progress, why do differences in children's articulation abilities not surface at 3? Or at 4? Or at 5,6,7,8...? If a language was ultimately easier or more difficult, the differences would inevitably manifest themselves with time.

Quote:

D) They have no need to since they talk to adults lowering their speech level or children.

In certain cultures, the parents don't practice motherese. In others, adults generally don't speak to children until they're capable of speaking back. Children learn in both of these environments at the same rate as children in motherese-rich environments.

Quote:

E) Their parents talk to them as if they were babies until they look like a 3 yeare old child.

See above.

Quote:

F) LIKE I SAID this doesn't mean in any way that they couldn't go faster.

You keep talking about "could" but you don't seem to have any proof concerning children, toddlers, or infants, with respect to their abilities to produce output before they do. You keep referencing adults, and I've already gone into why referencing the ways adults learn things doesn't work in the context of first language acquisition in children.

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