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Is spoken Latin the same across Europe ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Hampie Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6480 days ago 625 posts - 1009 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Latin, German, Mandarin | Message 33 of 45 03 October 2011 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | ||
How come? If you’re not doing classical every countries local pronunciation is as okay as another, since the language during medieval times and after were a lingua franca that were the native tongue of no one. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6524 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 34 of 45 04 October 2011 at 12:01am | IP Logged | ||
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There are a few 'dialects' of Latin that have a special status. The reconstructed classical one is special because it rests on a solid scientific foundation going all the way back to the Roman grammarians. The 'ecclesiastic' pronunciation (which in practice would be the same as the Italianate one) is the only one to have the official blessing of the Roman Catholic church which - for better or worse - represents a tradition dating back through the Medieval period to the late Roman period. But it isn't a secret that there are other traditions which also have been firmly entrenched within a certain community - as far as I know British juridical circles have their very own idiosyncratic ways of dealing with Latin juridical terms. These traditions are of course legitimate, but for pedagogical purposes textbooks and Latin sites should try to follow one of the two major trends - and I would generally prefer the restored classical pronunciation, but for Medieval texts the ecclesiastic pronunciation would probably be a more congenial choice. Local variations are all but unavoidable, and precisely because you hardly can avoid them there isn't any reason to encourage them. With the low number of Latin speakers (even if 'readers' are included) two main dialects should be enough. Edited by Iversen on 05 October 2011 at 4:17pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Hampie Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6480 days ago 625 posts - 1009 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Latin, German, Mandarin | Message 35 of 45 04 October 2011 at 7:43am | IP Logged | ||
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The local variations of the latin pronunciation are not that different from the Italian one. Yours and mine (denmark
and sweden) are roughly the same. I think the most peculiar element of the Swedish ‹old› one is that sc became into our sk-sound, otherwhise c became s/k, oe and ae became ä, and I believe that g for some reason stayed the same. I don’t really think that people would face a problem with that if they were anywhere here proficient in latin — especially (no offence please) when most anglican people heavily diphthongize several of the vowels unintentionally. The choice to have the Italian way to do latin in the Catholic church, afaik, is a very modern one and was only recently widespread — probably due to Italian influence. I’m very tired, I hope this makes sense. [For people totally unaware of Swedish phonology the sk-sound is a sound unique to Swedish somewhat similar to the German act-laut, but pronounced further in the mouth. It has it’s own IPA-symbol] 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6093 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 36 of 45 04 October 2011 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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I can't remember the source, but I read somewhere that the 16th century Council of Trent aimed at reforming the Catholic Church took months to overcome language barriers among participants from different countries, despite only Latin being used. This was because of different pronunciation norms for Latin being in use.
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| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5386 days ago 938 posts - 1839 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 37 of 45 05 October 2011 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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William - that's correct and there was a major disagreement between French and Italian bishops as to how latin should be pronounced, both claiming the Roman heritage.
The trouble with saying that you use restored classical for classical texts and Italianate for medieval texts is that the use of Italianate pronounciation in the Roman Catholic church outside of Italy only dates back to the late 19th and early 20th century. Before that priests and scholars would use the latin pronounciation taught in their grammar schools (e.g. Italian, Anglo-French, German). The absurd situation that this creates is that one wants an authentic pronounciation of medieval and early modern latin one has to adapt ones dialects to the author or his or her religious denomination (e.g. John Calvin, as a follower of Erasmus and a student of Corderius, used the Erasmian version of restored classical pronunciation). The best idea to me is to pick one (I favour restored classical) and stick to it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5155 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 38 of 45 05 October 2011 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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This remiinds me of the very vivid discussion I had with an American friend, who was unwilling to admit that the Romans did not pronounce Latin with a strong New York accent. Latin was Latin, and there was just one way to pronounce it. His way.
Personally I had a long conversation with my Latin teacher about the pronunciation I should go for: Reading it out like a Norwegian would, or pronouncing it like an Italian or Spaniard would. Fortunately he agreed with me that there was a better chance of hitting the right note if I pretended to be half Spanish and half Italian, and then just read along, than if I did it according to Norwegian rules. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6093 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 39 of 45 06 October 2011 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | ||
The late great Tony Curtis was playing a character of the Middle Ages in one film, but just could not let his New York accent go. One of his lines came out as "Yonda is the castle of my fadda." 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6093 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 40 of 45 06 October 2011 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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One of the clues that the Vinland Map, supposedly a pre-Columbian map showing awareness of the forgotten Viking colonies in Newfoundland, is a fake comes from the Latin spelling used. Whoever wrote the Latin comments on the map was familiar with Erasmian spelling of Latin (ae where e would have been the spelling used during the Middle Ages).
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