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Average Joe/Jose takes a level test | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5224 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 17 of 80 22 June 2013 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What, those studying sciences can't "summarize information from different spoken and written sources, reconstructing arguments and accounts in a coherent presentation" or "express themselves spontaneously, very fluently and precisely, differentiating finer shades of meaning even in more complex situations" as well as the humanities types? ;) (OK, just kidding, but don't tease me) Current C2 tests should be more likely to be accessible to natives with university-level cognitive abilities, regardless of their actually having attended university, or even high school (I know such late bloomers -- they lack 'higher education' but after my experience I think they would equally very likely pass a native C2 test without effort). However, it all depends on a lot of factors. For example, I would say in Spain 'Average Joes' probably have university degrees nowadays, whereas their counterparts thirty years ago didn't. OTOH I think any university graduate from thirty years ago in Spain would pass current C2s hands down, but I'm not certain at all about that in this time and age. And yes, you guessed it, I'm not proud of the Spanish university scene :)
I think the only problem with CEF regarding this is its being a bit misleading. Depending on the learner's background and personal abilities C2 may well be out of the question, as we have been dwelling on, and having everything on a single scale makes it look like C2 is a feasible achievement for everybody given enough time, effort, etc. That's not ideal. Are there better alternatives? I'm not sure...
Couldn't agree more. Edited by mrwarper on 22 June 2013 at 9:41pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 18 of 80 22 June 2013 at 11:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I usually don't answer outlandish statements, but this is too much. How can one say that starting at B2 there are more and more things that have nothing to do with language knowledge? If the B2, C1 and C2 tests don't measure language knowledge, what do they measure? And "All high-level tests are guilty of this"? What other high level tests? The purpose of the CEFR tests is to evaluate the ability to use the language under certain circumstances. Since most people only know the C2 tests from the comprehension tests they see on the Internet, it might be useful to see what part of the Spanish DELE C2 tests contains. The candidate is given a recent document such as a newspaper article and 30 minutes to read it, summarize it and then make an oral presentation to the examiners. Then there is a 20 minute debate or conversation with the examiners. I like to think of this as a university seminar and debate. What are the examiners looking for? I don't know about all the other" high level tests" but this is what I know about the DELE. From what I've seen and experienced, the examiners are looking for the ability to interact in the language at the highest level of proficiency to be expected of non-natives. That means, among other things, virtually no grammatical mistakes. a rich vocabulary including extensive use of idioms and derivational structures, use of complex grammatical structures such as hypothetical statements and periphrases, good use of logical operators, a high level of speaking fluency with little hesitation and stuttering and the ability to make and defend opinions and viewpoints. What is this if not knowledge of the language? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 19 of 80 22 June 2013 at 11:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well, the biggest issue is that the French and Spanish tests have this presentation nonsense while the Finnish ones don't. Yet all three are CEFR-classified. (by other tests I meant DLI or other tests that don't use the CEFR scale and guidelines)
And for me there's a huge difference between "debate or conversation". Does it essentially depend on how lucky you are with your topic? If so, WTF. Basically, I believe that you don't need to put the learner into a stressful situation in order to expose his/her mistakes. The exam itself is already a stressful situation even when you're not required to debate, give presentations or summarize some stupid articles. PS did you read mrwarper's posts? PPS the funny thing is that I don't have any problems with the cognitive skills like summarizing, finding the main points etc... I just hate being forced to use them for things I don't care about. and more importantly, I don't see how your ability to summarize shows your flawless grammar and rich vocabulary, other than by proving that your skills are automatic enough for you not to lose them in a stressful situation. Edited by Serpent on 23 June 2013 at 12:07am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4288 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 20 of 80 23 June 2013 at 2:47am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The debate/conversation part worries me, since I am nervous enough to have problems in my
own native English doing that. In university and secondary school I was always poor at presentations, even in my own language. It does not help that I stutter and pause often in almost every regular conversation, in any language... Edited by 1e4e6 on 23 June 2013 at 2:51am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 21 of 80 23 June 2013 at 5:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I can see why some people are afraid of "presentation nonsense", "debates/conversations" or having to "summarize some stupid articles." Obviously the Spanish and the Spanish C2 exam format are not for that person. I happen to think that it is an excellent format because it provides a platform for the examination of those skills that are required of C2. You're supposed to be able to summarize a text; you,re supposed to be able to debate and discuss with native speakers. And all with impeccable grammar and vocabulary. If you can't do it, you're not at C2. After all, there is C1, B2 and even B1. It's a simple as that. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 22 of 80 23 June 2013 at 5:31am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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*headdesk* You missed the point again. Summarizing and debating are not language skills, unlike perfect grammar or vocab. These skills are transferrable between languages and even from your native language. But as this thread reminds, if we focus too much on them, many native speakers won't pass C2 exams.
Also, I believe any CEFR exam should be possible to pass without any special preparation, unless you've just barely reached that level. I basically did that with Finnish, but obviously with those ridiculous demands it wouldn't be possible. *pukes at the thought of an artificial debate where the examiner shares your opinion but is forced to troll you for the sake of debate* 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5128 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 23 of 80 23 June 2013 at 6:09am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Of course they are, unless you're limiting your language skills to literacy.
That's not really how it works. R. == 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 24 of 80 23 June 2013 at 6:43am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Instead of beating around the bush, let's look at a description from the University of Cambridge ESOL
examination description for speaking proficiency: "Speaking In social and travel contexts, a Level C2 user can cope with ease with the language use situations of everyday life, including conversations on a variety of topics and in a variety of contexts. Lapses in understanding or appropriacy of language use which occur are likely to be minor, and users at this level have the strategies for repairing misunderstandings. They can also handle phone conversations with people they know on a variety of topics. In the workplace, they can argue a case effectively, justifying demands and specifying needs clearly. They can handle a wide range of non-routine as well as routine situations arising out of dealings with colleagues and outside contacts. In meetings they can participate fully in discussions and arguments. If unknown terms are used, they can check them or compensate for lack of knowledge in the same way a native speaker would. If studying, users at this level can give a presentation or demonstration, handling questions or criticisms appropriately, although a complex, theoretical matter may prove difficult to explain. They can take an active part in seminars and tutorials, arguing and expressing disagreement without giving offence. " It's clear: whether you like or not or think that it is stupid or that the demands are ridiculous, you are asked to "give a presentation or demonstation, handling criticism appropriately... arguing and expressing disagreement without giving offence." If you can't do this, you can't. There's no shame. As they say: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." 1 person has voted this message useful |
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