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Average Joe/Jose takes a level test | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4819 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 73 of 80 27 June 2013 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think the basic trouble of most tests, grades and similar things is the 1D scale. The exam tries to put all the candidates on one line where the person on your right side should be a better speaker than you are and the person on your left side would be a worse speaker. And taking all into account (the can do things, the mistakes, your fluency etc) makes this very difficult and in some ways and from some points of view always unfair.
I wonder why there is no exam with at least 2D result. I mean something like the graphs used for personality types (I googled one here: http://www.my-homebased-business.com/personality-types.html. One axis would be that "can do", another would be the accuracy of chosen vocabulary, those grammar mistakes etc. And than there could even be 3D, where the third axis would be fluency, not getting stuck, how natural and appropriate is your speed, ability to solve mistakes and troubles on the go. So, my dream language exam would tell much more about my skills and therefore would give me more feedback about my strong and weak points. And it would tell more about my skills to any employer or educational organisation who might take more into account how those skills apply to their requirements and avoid an unpleasant surprise. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5240 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 74 of 80 28 June 2013 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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In the Canadian federal government, bilingual jobs are classifed in terms of language requirements with a three-
letter scale, A,B and C for three skills, reading, writing, oral interaction. Note the term "oral interaction" not speaking. As for the CEFR one-dimensional scale, I don't see that as a problem at all. You must bear in mind that the CEFR exam is not a diagnostic test. It doesn't tell you how well you are doing. It tells you what requirements you meet. If you pass the B2 test, all it says is that you have met all the requirements of that level. Your writing skills may be your weakest area but you have met the minimum requirements. This is why you have to pass all the component tests in order to pass the test. This is also why, at least in the case of the Spanish DELE tests, you must choose the level you want to be examined at. You either pass or fail. The test does not tell you your level. This is very different from a diagnostic-oriented test, like the IELTS, that attempts to ascertain where you are on a scale. Edited by s_allard on 28 June 2013 at 3:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4819 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 75 of 80 28 June 2013 at 6:45pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am NOT saying it is a diagnostic test. I AM saying that this focus on putting people somewhere on one line is making many exams, including the CEFR ones, much less useful than they could be with very little additional work on the part of the system.
I'd appreciate if you finally worked on your reading comprehension and stopped telling me what to bear in mind (as others have mostly given up, and understood how pointless it is to argue with someone as narrowminded, earlier than I did). I know damn well how it works. Or have you at least tried some of the exams personally? You've never mentioned any personal experience,have you? Not only at Dele, you choose the level at most "classical" exams, even though the level is not necessarily part of the name. And even when you don't, when you take something like TCF which is meant as an up to date diagnostics of the level (before telling me I am wrong, please check the official websites), you still are put on the 1D scale and therefore the test doesn't tell much more about your skills and about real differences between you and other bunch of people with the same level (or around the same final amount of points). When it comes to the TCF in particular, as it is the one example I am more familiar with, it tells even less than the DELF/DALF actually. Please, could someone perhaps lock this thread (and perhaps rename it to "a sophisticated trolling example")? I think we can move interesting points of discussion to other threads, some were already started, and I am perhaps not the only one tired and annoyed by s_allard's love for repeating the obvious in order to supress any possible direction of the discussion there has been since the beginning of the thread(and basically tell us how dumb we are to even consider discussing it). I think he could have just copy pasted his first post all over the thread as the purpose of most of them was the same (many even shared 90% of the content). Or let it just rot (or perhaps sallard will keep posting, who knows). I am done here. Everything interesting was killed in this place and discussion of this kind is pointless and no fun. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6407 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 76 of 80 28 June 2013 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | ||
You're tired of my references to Finnish tests, but there you choose between basic, medium, high (A1-A2, B1-B2, C1-C2 obviously). You can get placed differently in different skills, for example I got C2 in grammar&vocabulary (which are combined as one part, a written test where you are forced to use certain structures and to show your vocab knowledge). Basically, for each skill there were three possible outcomes: C1, C2, below C1. If you're below C1 it doesn't prove you're B2, and if you fail even one skill you fail the whole test. To pass C2, you obviously need C2 in all skills. (and you don't need to do a stupid presentation). I think the Finns got it right, as usual. It's much easier to choose whether you are ready for a "high" level test or not than whether you are B2, C1, C2. For example, I was kinda insecure and wondered if I should just take the one that would be enough for a job/citizenship (B2), which is less exhausting (about 3 hours vs about 5), was available on a more suitable date etc. But then I listened to ONE sample file and it was boring as hell, so I decided to go for the high level. Edited by Serpent on 28 June 2013 at 10:40pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5240 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 77 of 80 29 June 2013 at 2:26am | IP Logged | ||
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I always find it interesting that when people run out of arguments, they resort to insults. I don't see what all this
fire and brimstone is about.In my last post, I pointed out that the Canadian government uses a three point or 3D job classification scheme. If a job is classified BCC, this means that you have to pass those respective levels in the three components of the tests. As for my sentence "You must bear in mind in mind that the CEFR exam is not a diagnostic test" it was not addressed to @Cavesa in particular. The pronoun "you" is being used generically as is common in English. Maybe someone else could use some work on reading comprehension and modern English. As for my personal experience with the CEFR exams, the only one is the DELE C1. If I can figure out how to put the C1 superscript in my profile, I'll do it. That said, as a university professor, I have prepared and graded countless exams, so I think a thing or two about making exams. I can be persistent but picky but to be accused of trolling is rather intriguing, I think my record speaks for itself. Edited by s_allard on 29 June 2013 at 2:27am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6407 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 78 of 80 29 June 2013 at 11:36am | IP Logged | ||
And trolling doesn't always mean just posting stupid sнit. (to add a certificate, go to your profile for the language and choose certificates, then specify it) Edited by Serpent on 29 June 2013 at 11:39am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4819 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 79 of 80 29 June 2013 at 11:44am | IP Logged | ||
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1. "You" is used generically but sometimes, in a certain context, it doesn't look generical any more.
2.Read your posts to see an example of someone who has run out of arguments several pages ago. You are repeating yourself and your only obvious goal is to tell people how wrong they are in their choice of discussion topic. 3. I was very non insulting, considering your behaviour. I think your posts contain a lot of passive agressivity and arrogance. You are a troll. You just didn't understand that other people on the thread were annoyed by your repeated attempts to ruin the discussion so I thought you could understand this way better. Edited by Cavesa on 29 June 2013 at 11:45am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Jiwon Triglot Moderator Korea, South Joined 6246 days ago 1417 posts - 1500 votes Speaks: EnglishC2, Korean*, GermanC1 Studies: Hindi, Spanish Personal Language Map | Message 80 of 80 29 June 2013 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ladies and gentlemen, please do refrain from evolving into personal accusations and
help this forum to be productive. Having said that, I think that this thread has already fulfilled its original purpose. While I find arguments of several users very interesting and worthy of further discussion, it would be better to start a different thread, which is more specifically aimed for those purposes. So now the thread is closed. Anyone with different ideas may explain themselves to me via PM, and their opinions will be heard. PS - congratulations on bringing me back to moderating after years of absence 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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