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Average Joe/Jose takes a level test | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 57 of 80 24 June 2013 at 9:41pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I should have used other words than an intelligent and moron, true, sorry. (even though I could give you exemples of when morons do much better at some hard exams than someone intelligent but that is for another discussion. many exams are surprisingly diligent-moron-friendly, including some parts of the language exams)
And we are back at the beginning when we were trying to get to how much do the tests have in common with reality by asking whether native speakers might have trouble with the high levels. And whether other things, such as overall education or intelligence or just drilling the past papers, mean more for the test than the real skills. We are at the beginning of the circle. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 58 of 80 25 June 2013 at 7:18am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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As I said earlier, the idea of having native speakers sit the CEFR tests is little more than idle speculation and of
dubious scientific value. The CEFR was designed to identify, classify and measure a set of language tasks that foeign speakers should he able to perform for academic and professional mobility in the EU. The reason this subject comes up is because there is the idea that C2 is native-like proficiency and that all natives should score at least a C2. And then there is the idea that some foreigners can speaker "better" than natives because they (the foreigners) can do better than natives on some tests. In this regard, it is important to keep in mind that there are things that the CEFR does not attempt to measure. For example, pronunciation is hardly mentioned. The candidate must be intelligible, and there is no doubt that pronunciation improves as one goes up the scale. But the CEFR does not have a phonetic test. The reason for this, I think, is that most foreigners, especially adults, never come close to having anything like native phonology. And as long as the speech is comprehensible, there are more important things to measure. The CEFR does not dwell on social register and the distinctions between slang, informal, neutral, formal and ceremonial forms of speech. The CEFR does not emphasize the cultural dimension of language. This is a huge area where cultural and historical references are important dimensions of the content of communication. The CEFR does not look at wordplay, puns,and humour in language usage. The CEFR does not emphasize the ability to sustain conversational interaction at real speed. All these areas are of course very present in the daily linguistic interaction of native speakers. This also explains why our professor with a PhD in Spanish literature can give a seminar in Spanish but is unable to tell jokes in Spansh in a bar surrounded by natives. So, let the CEFR do what it was designed to do. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 59 of 80 25 June 2013 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
You could say quite anything on this forum is of dubious scientific value and an idle speculation. Even RS can show more "scientific proves" to their claims than we as our only prove is usually "it worked for me".
No, noone said some foreigners speak better than the natvies because of the test and I am beginning to think you are reading us wrong on purpose to avoid not being right, no offence meant. Most of the posts here were saying quite the opposite. The whole idea of natives sitting the test was just a way to ponder the relevance of the tests. And one of the interesting conclusions (I think worded by Serpent) was: "An average foreigner Joe moving to the country is required to perform better at tests not that relevant to life and job than an average native Jose could." Noone says that the Joe therefore speaks better than Jose.
It is part of the spoken exam. Of course you need a good enough pronunciation in order to do well in that. And I think it is one of the good things there is no specific pronunciation test or do you believe a test on the IPA chart or ability to mimic words and sounds would tell more than the spoken exam?
You are right these things are not part of the exams, people are even being actively discouraged and sometimes even punished for some of them. But I wouldn't be that sure they aren't part of the CEFR scale. The scale and the exams are closely tied together but they are not one. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 60 of 80 25 June 2013 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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When I write, I try to be as clear as possible. For example,
"In this regard, it is important to keep in mind that there are things that the CEFR does not attempt to measure. For example, pronunciation is hardly mentioned. The candidate must be intelligible, and there is no doubt that pronunciation improves as one goes up the scale. But the CEFR does not have a phonetic test." One can infer that the CEFR does obliquely or indirectly take into account certain things that are not explicitly stated. But the CEFR does not measure them. In all the CEFR definitions, I have never seen the words phonetic, cultural references, historical references, social register, slang, etc. Are you required to tell a joke in a C2 test? Are yu required to make fun of a high-class or a low-class form of speaking? Are you required to express strong emotions such as surprise, anger, or fear with the appropriate language? Are you required to show how you would express congratulations or condolences? Are you required to give a public speech (not a presentation)? The list goes on and on. The point is that the CEFR was not designed to model the full spectrum of the use of language by native speakers. I don't know how many times it has to be said that the CEFR has a strong academic and professional bias. What is the most common use of CEFR tests? University admissions, professional job applications and immigration applications. I don't doubt that many native speakers would not pass a C2 test. If you don't have a university level education and you do not actively read and write high-level texts in your everyday life, you will have a problem. Is this a surprise? What can you conclude? This whole debate reminds of other tests. For example the SAT or Scholastic Assessment Test is the most common test used for college admission in North America. By its very nature, it is aimed at teenagers in high school. What sort of results would you get if you admiistered this test to the entire adult population? Most people would not get very good results. Anybody surprised? Again, what can you conclude other than the test is not meant for the entire population. There are two fundamental questions here? What are the specific components of native language proficiency? And then, what tools do we use to measure them? 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 61 of 80 25 June 2013 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
IMO, these are far more relevant than those goddamn presentations. I also mostly spoke puhekieli (informal Finnish). Edited by Serpent on 25 June 2013 at 5:40pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 62 of 80 25 June 2013 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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s_allard, I am more and more under the impression you are trying to argue for the sake of the argument. Everyone on this thread knows and wrote that the test doesn't measure everything. And you keep parroting that this discussion is purposeless. But for several of us, there was obviously something interesting in it, especially as one of the purposes of the cefr is immigration as you noted.
To some of your questions: yes, I have seen assignments with congratulations in official mock tests. No, phonetics per se isn't listed but your pronunciation is surely one of the things that are judged. As was said at least a dozen times: you are right that the test doesn't measure the full spectrum, noone was ever saying otherwise, you are fighting an opponent you have created yourself. But we, who participated in the discussion were interested about the things that ARE part of the test and how they relate to real use of the language. Another one: everyone knows there is the strong academic and professional bias and some details about it were the matter of discussion before it turned into you trying to beat us with your belief that this discussion is purposeless. And truth be told, your repeating of still the same "arguments" is becoming quite tiring. You are not unclear, quite the opposite. I'd just say you are arrogant, including the sarcastic first sentence of your last post. I am not having trouble understanding your point and I doubt anyone else is. We just differ in what we find worthy of discussion and what not. There were actually some very interesting points being uncovered and I believe it would have been a totally different and more fruitful discussion had you not decided to ruin it because you see it useless. I wonder why some people don't use their freedom not to read something when they don't like it more often. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 63 of 80 25 June 2013 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
I'll just ignore those comments about my arrogance and bad intentions. I take them as things said in the "fragor de la discusión.: So let;s move on to a theme that is more central to the OP. After much scratching of the head, I think I figured out what the quote above is trying to say. Especially the part attributed to @serpent: "An average foreigner Joe moving to the country is required to perform better at tests not that relevant to life and job than an average native Jose could." I think there is an interesting point in @serpent's inimitable prose.. Rather than discuss some vague average Joe, Juan or José, let's look at some real cases. I mentioned earlier that in Quebec, immigrants from non-francophone countries who want to practice in regulated professions must pass a French proficiency test. Here is the problem. Can the testing authorities design one test that works for everybody, ranging from architects, doctors, dentists, nurses, lawyers to electricians and psychologists? After some complaints about the early tests being irrelevant and too difficult (in the beginning over 80% of nurses were failing), it was decided to elaborate the tests in cooperation with the professional authorities. The idea was to design tests that would truly reflect the linguistic requirements of each profession. This means that the tests are not identical. One can say that French is French, but the specific requirements for a nursing assistant are not the same as those of a psychologist. The current tests are much better and more realistic, but there is still some discussion about what is really necessary. In this context, I see a place for having native speakers validate these kinds of tests. For example, if we design a test for immigrant doctors, it would be a good idea to have a sample of native doctors try the test and give us feedback as to the relevance of the test. This I wholeheartedly endorse and encourage. A similar problem arises in certain jurisdictions where language tests are used for immigration or citizenship purposes. For example, a country may require that all adult candidates for citizenship pass a language test of let's say a B1 level. The usual declared purpose of these tests is to ensure that immigrants will be able to integrate well into the host society. I happen to believe that the real purpose of these tests is to create an additiional obstacle on the path to citizenship and that the tests are harder than necessary. Are the tests administered by the authorized testing agencies really reflective of the language that people will really need in their everyday lives? A lot of this is highly questionable. One could object that the test is unrealistic and that many native speakers would fail the test. I'm personally against these tests completely because I believe that people will spontaneously learn a language by interaction. I also believe that the primary purpose of these tests is to create a barrier to citizenship. Therefore the tests are not designed to reflect the true usage in everyday life. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 64 of 80 25 June 2013 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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That is a great load of info, thank's s_allard. (and much more relevant than the whole previous pointless discussion about pointlessness of the discussion :-D ). Why didn't you come earlier with this?
Are there similar tests for people coming from non-anglophone countries to Canada as a whole? 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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