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| lynxrunner Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United States crittercryptics.com Joined 5925 days ago 361 posts - 461 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish*, French Studies: Russian, Swedish, Haitian Creole | Message 9 of 41 06 January 2010 at 4:33am | IP Logged | |||||
There are some Midwestern dialects that used "It needs washed", though "It needs washing" is standard. Anyhoo (anywho?) is definitely used in American English. 'Aboot' (pronounced kind of like 'a boat') is in used in some Northern dialects (I remember running into some guys from Conneticut at a debate competition that said 'aboat'). Yous (also spelled youse) is used in New York and New jersey. It's associated with the typical New York/New Jersey accent, especially with tough guys and mafiosos. I wonder if all of this comes from Scots influence? That'd be something interesting to look into. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| elvisrules Tetraglot Senior Member BelgiumRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5472 days ago 286 posts - 390 votes Speaks: French, English*, Dutch, Flemish Studies: Lowland Scots, Japanese, German | Message 10 of 41 06 January 2010 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
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about not like 'a boat', but /əˈbut/
same vowel sound in Anyhoo I did a quick look up on the yous thing and it seems in America it's more often used as a singular rather than plural? In Scotland it's strictly used as a plural. I read on Wir Ain Leed "The plural forms of you and ye, youse and yese, which probably originated in Ireland are quite widespread in Scotland.". This explains why everyone from Glasgow seems to use it, but less people from other regions. Anyway, if the influence in the USA came from the British Isles (I hate this name) then it's probably Ireland, not Scotland. Also interesting that thou: "[...] still survive to some extent in Southern Scots and in Shetland as 'du' and 'dee' where thoo is often used with a verb having the same form as the third person." Edited by elvisrules on 06 January 2010 at 4:05pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6014 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 11 of 41 06 January 2010 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
Anywho? Nope. A lot of words that in English have the O-double-U diphthong (IPA /aw/) in Scots were traditionally spelt with O-(single-)U in Scots, which is pronounce similarly to the French OU or the English OO. (Modern convention seems to favour using (OO in place of OU here.) Hence Scots "house" (house) is pronounced "hooss". Cow was spelt "cou", which is modernised to "coo" (sounds as an English speaker would read "coo"). (This pronunciation of OU shouldn't surprise you -- you say it all the time in English words... like "should", "would" and "you".) Anyway, English "about" could so easily be rewritten "abowt", because it's the same sound as "how now brown cow", but the same word was written in the same way in Middle Scots. Read it aloud according to how I described OU above and it's clear where the "aboot" pronunciation comes from. Now going back to "anyhoo". Take the Standard English "anyhow". Substitute Scots OU for English OW = "anyhou". Pronounce it with the sound OU makes in "you" and you've got something that sounds like "anyhoo", but definitely means "anyhow" rather than "anywho". Unfortunately, "hou" is a word that English has basically killed. Even the strongest advocates of Scots stick with the English "how", as "hou" is far too easily confused with the English word "who" (the Scots equivalent "wha" being different).
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| elvisrules Tetraglot Senior Member BelgiumRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5472 days ago 286 posts - 390 votes Speaks: French, English*, Dutch, Flemish Studies: Lowland Scots, Japanese, German | Message 12 of 41 06 January 2010 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm pretty sure uncle almost always pronounces the 'ou' in hou, so I suppose it's not dead yet, at least in The Kingdom.
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 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6706 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 13 of 41 06 January 2010 at 11:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The same must apply to "nou" ("now"), which could be confused with English "new". But basically you could kill off anything in Scots if you had to evade anything that might suggest a false friend in English. Edited by Iversen on 07 January 2010 at 1:01pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| sonsenfrancais Groupie United Kingdom sonsenfrancais. Joined 5982 days ago 75 posts - 85 votes Speaks: FrenchC2 | Message 14 of 41 07 January 2010 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm very impressed by all of the above. But a simple comment from someone who was born on the border between Scotland and England and has spent his life in both countries.
There is no 'Scottish language', if we're not talking about Scottish Gaelic. Scottish is an accent (or a set of accents). In the North East of England we speak with a Geordie accent. Sixty miles north they speak with an Edinburgh scots accent. Sixty miles south they speak with a Yorkshire accent. Because people are proud of their regions (and in the case of the Scots VERY proud of their country) you get books on 'regional languages' which may be serious or funny (There was a book called 'Larn yersel Geordie'.) There is dialect of course. My Scots mother always referred to the fireside as the 'inglenouk'. If dialect words predominate you might say you have a separate language. But that is not true of modern Scots, although there are parts of Glasgow where you might think so. None of the above is intended to decry the pride people have in their part of the world or the laudable desire to define and analyse the way people speak. But - language ? Surely not 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6706 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 15 of 41 07 January 2010 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It is always difficult to decide where the limit is between languages and dialects, and it is even more difficult to do it when there really is a dialect continuum. And Scots (in all its forms) does have some traits that speak against seeing it as a language: it lacks a single standardized form (written and spoken), it lacks support from the speakers (who resort to standard English when they write and when they speak to outsiders), in its milder forms it is understandable even for people who speak other kinds of English and I doubt that it is used as the principal means for teaching in Scottish schools. In all these respects it reminds me of something like Low German, which also often is called a dialect, even though it definitely was a language in its own right until around 1500.
However under other, hypothetical circumstances you could see Queens' English and hardcore Glasgewian as languages without changing a iota in either one of them: if Scotland still was an independent country it is fairly sure that the school, church and administration language wouldn't be Queens' English, but either one of the Scottish dialect or a mixture of some of them (unless of course William Wallace had won, because then it might have been hardcore Gaelic). This is not an argument for calling Scots a language now, because the circumstances are different from those I described. However as ElvisRules points out below Scots already has some legal rights that normally are reserved for languages (including official recognition as a language), so just calling it a dialect (or dialect bundle) is equally problematic. And even though many Scotsmen speak ordinary English with a slight Scottish accent, true Scots is definitely more than an accent. It is worth reminding about the situation in Scandinavia, where historical events lead to the formation of several distinct 'language cores', which in spite of their closeness all are functioning as totally independent units - and therefore we consider them as languages. Or look at the situation in Spain where at least in Catalunya the support for Catalan is strong enough to keep it as a clearly separate linguistic unit with its own profile (in spite of internal dialects) and with public support in form of Catalan schools and media. Finally we have one more thing to consider as language learners, namely that you have to treat Scottish - whatever it is - as a separate language if you want to learn it. If I moved to Scotland I could probably unconsciously absorb the local way of speaking, whether I chose to speak it or not, but without immersion I have to do the same things as I do to learn an undisputed language like Icelandic or Romanian, - I just get a lot of things for free and therefore I can proceed faster. Otherwise I would never be able to draw a clear line between my eclectic Standard English and my fledgling Scots. Edited by Iversen on 07 January 2010 at 2:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| elvisrules Tetraglot Senior Member BelgiumRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5472 days ago 286 posts - 390 votes Speaks: French, English*, Dutch, Flemish Studies: Lowland Scots, Japanese, German | Message 16 of 41 07 January 2010 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, this brings us nowhere but back to the old language/dialect debate... A language is a dialect with an army and a navy...
Scots is certainly not an accent... What's with British people and calling dialects accents? I haven't encountered than in Belgium. Anyway, as I explained before, for historical reasons I think Scots can be called a language and I don't think it needs to justify itsself in terms of how close it is to English. I don't understand your point about having a different language if dialectal words predominate. I don't think this has to be the case at all. Surely it's clear than language is more political than anything else. Or would you tell Slovaks that they don't speak Slovak but Czeck? Last point is: it is recognized as a (regional) language by the UK government, therefore it is one! Can you use dialects in court? No, but you can use Scots in Scotland. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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