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Beginning Russian Advice? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| fabriciocarraro Hexaglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Brazil russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4718 days ago 989 posts - 1454 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese | Message 41 of 70 11 April 2012 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
What do you mean, Mark? What is [b'om] for you? Like in the word "bomber"? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 42 of 70 11 April 2012 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Nope, just a soft b. ' doesn't mark the stress here.
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| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5059 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 43 of 70 11 April 2012 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
I have written that I indicate softness with apostrophy, and that's a common way to do it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| fabriciocarraro Hexaglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Brazil russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4718 days ago 989 posts - 1454 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese | Message 44 of 70 12 April 2012 at 12:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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I've just noticed that I heard almost no difference between бъём and бём. I asked my wife to say those words repeatedly and to my ears they're pretty much the same. Just like with "Ш" and "Щ", to my ears they're also the same.
I think it's the same with Portuguese (Serpent might help me on this one). My (Russian) wife still can't notice very well the difference between the words "avô" and "avó", the same to her Russian girlfriends living here in Brazil. Although it seems extremely clear to me, to them they sound just the same. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5059 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 45 of 70 12 April 2012 at 1:05am | IP Logged | |||||
But you have never tried to understand what the difference is. You speak about "little pauses" and other nonsense stuff. I wonder how you pronounce both like бём or like бьём. It seems you pronounce soft consonants as a consonant + y. Do you hear the difference between не and нье, or шья and ща? Ш and Щ differ in the same way as л and ль. Ш is close to a devoiced English R or the Portugese sound probably, while щ is somethng like English sh in she. The middle of the tongue is raised to the roof of the mouth. Why didn't youtube help you with that? Maybe some explanations are needed? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| fabriciocarraro Hexaglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Brazil russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4718 days ago 989 posts - 1454 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese | Message 46 of 70 12 April 2012 at 1:33am | IP Logged | |||||
The problem is not only pronunciation, but understanding the difference. You're a native, so that might make no sense to you, but if I hear ANY Russian saying a word with Ш or Щ I most likely won't notice the difference. I've read all the explanations about how the tongue must be placed, that щ is softer and all that, but when listening to Russian, my brain doesn't understand the difference between Ш and Щ. The same way as my wife and her Russian girlfriends can't notice the (for me, a native) extremely clear difference between "avô" and "avó". I can tell the difference between л and ль, but not between Ш and Щ. Maybe because they're closer, or maybe because Portuguese doesn't have this sound and my brain just associates it to the closer sound it finds. (In fact, I've just asked my wife and she told me that I "always" say the Ш/Щ sound in a way closer to a Щ). Probably more years of practice will help me, I hope so. Edited by fabriciocarraro on 12 April 2012 at 1:37am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5059 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 47 of 70 12 April 2012 at 6:17am | IP Logged | |||||
You should start with the correct pronunciation. Pronounce the correct sound all the time and you will start hearing the difference. It's a good starting point, I think, to pronounce Ш as a devoiced English R.In order to start hearing the difference ask your wife to pronounce Portugese words with Ш. I'll try to attach my audio, you can place your recording too (give a link to it). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5059 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 48 of 70 12 April 2012 at 6:40am | IP Logged | |||||
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In order to clarify:
тъя - hard t + y + a тья - soft t + y + a тя - soft t + a та - hard t + a The difference between the hard and the soft sign in this situation is not observed after the labials: b, p, v, f, m. They can be pronounced hard or soft before "y" without any significant changing. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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